Name: Bellingham City Council - Regular Meeting meeting, Jan 6, 2025
Start: 2025-01-06
End: 2025-01-06
Location: City of Bellingham

City Council - Regular Meeting

Mon, January 6, 2025

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Agenda items (10)

Adjournment

6AdjournmentTues. 12 PM: Repeat broadcast of Monday afternoon Committee meetings

7AdjournmentTues. 7 PM: Repeat broadcast of Monday night regular meeting

8AdjournmentWed. 8 AM: Repeat broadcast of Monday night regular meeting

9AdjournmentSat. 12 PM: Repeat broadcast of Monday afternoon Committee meetings

10AdjournmentSat. 7 PM: Repeat broadcast of Monday night regular meeting Online Streaming: The meetings are streamed live at https://cob.org/btv. Online viewers will see exactly what cable customers would see. Video: Video recordings of each meeting are available on the Internet at https://cob.org/meetings within five business days following each meeting.

Procedural (5)

24253ProceduralWork Session Regarding Landlord Tenant Relations and Unfair or Excessive Fees in

24254ProceduralWork Session Regarding Manufactured/Mobile Home Landlord Tenant Relations and Unfair or Excessive Fees in Manufactured/Mobile Home Lease Agreements

24383Procedural2025 City Council Reorganization

24384ProceduralDiscussion of Public Comment Sessions

24385ProceduralPresentation of 2025 State Legislative Agenda

Additional votes recorded in minutes

Elect council president (Hollie Huthman)

aye 1

voice voteaye

Elect council president pro tem (Skip Williams)

aye 1

voice voteaye

Elect mayor pro tem (Michael Lilliquist)

aye 1

voice voteaye

Table standing committee restructuring motion pending administration feedback

aye 1

voice voteaye

Elect climate action committee chair (Lisa Anderson)

aye 1

voice voteaye

Elect community and economic development committee chair (Jace Cotton)

aye 1

voice voteaye

Elect parks and recreation committee chair (Skip Williams)

aye 1

voice voteaye

Elect planning committee chair (Michael Lilliquist)

aye 1

voice voteaye

Elect public health safety justice and equity committee chair (Dan Hammill)

aye 1

voice voteaye

Elect public works and natural resources committee chair (Hannah Stone)

aye 1

voice voteaye

Appoint climate action committee members (Hammill and Lilliquist)

aye 1

voice voteaye

Appoint planning committee members (Lisa Anderson roll call vote)

aye 7

Dan Hammillaye

Hannah Stoneaye

Hollie Huthmanaye

Jace Cottonaye

Lisa Andersonaye

Michael Lilliquistaye

Skip Williamsaye

Appoint planning committee members (Skip Williams roll call vote)

aye 3 · nay 4

Dan Hammillaye

Hannah Stonenay

Hollie Huthmannay

Jace Cottonaye

Lisa Andersonnay

Michael Lilliquistnay

Skip Williamsaye

Appoint planning committee members (Hannah Stone roll call vote)

aye 7

Dan Hammillaye

Hannah Stoneaye

Hollie Huthmanaye

Jace Cottonaye

Lisa Andersonaye

Michael Lilliquistaye

Skip Williamsaye

Appoint public health safety justice and equity committee members

aye 1

voice voteaye

Appoint public works and natural resources committee members

aye 1

voice voteaye

Appoint parks and recreation committee members (Jace Cotton and Hannah Stone)

aye 1

voice voteaye

Appoint community and economic development committee members (Dan Hammill and Skip Williams)

aye 1

voice voteaye

Reappoint all council members to existing external board and committee assignments

aye 1

voice voteaye

Move legislative agenda item next on agenda

aye 1

voice voteaye

Add cure opportunity language to junk fees ordinance enforcement section

aye 1

voice voteaye

Amend junk fees ordinance to substitute 'monthly rent' for 'total monthly payment'

aye 1

voice voteaye

Amend junk fees ordinance to add prohibited optional fees

aye 6 · abstain 1

Dan Hammillaye

Hannah Stoneaye

Hollie Huthmanabstain

Jace Cottonaye

Lisa Andersonaye

Michael Lilliquistaye

Skip Williamsaye

Approve draft junk fees ordinance and manufactured home ordinance to proceed to public engagement

aye 1

voice voteaye

Verbatim transcript available

121 transcript segments indexed

1231 here and this is the council VI to start with we've got more business ahead of us here but the first order of business is the 2025 city council reorganization and after this reorganization meeting the council will nominate and elect city council officers appoint uh City Council Members to council standing committees and appoint City Council Members to boards task forces and other committees and work groups will also discuss potential changes to the council standing committies and assignments to external boards and work groups and I guess I'm going to pick this off the first order of business is to elect the new city council front Okay yeah so we'll go we'll go through the election of offes first uh and then we'll have discussion on standing committees and then um external assignments so we'll go through that whole process uh here and and we've got allocated I think 70 minutes which I think is plenty of time so um as first of business I would nominate um council member for city council president5 your seconds needed for nominations let's just go ahead and do seconds me as well second okay motion been made by council president the outgoing one and um St by council member um okay by by no okay um any further discussion on council president nomination go ahead council member so I mention it briefly to um council member huckman and just wanting to um Express just acknowledgement I guess for the work that the council president requires and acknowledging that some members of

the council will be running for office during this you know upcoming year and so it had been my you know personal policy of not necessarily wanting someone who's running for election to be serving as president some of it's the conflict of potential conflict of interests right not wanting to utilize your office you understand for the campaign or for political purposes um but also just acknowledging when a number of us have other jobs outside of council um so we have you know our quote onot day jobs our Council job um as well as then if you're serving as president and running a campaign um just wanting to acknowledge that I hope that whoever serves as president is going to make this a priority right in thinking about all of those hats that you have to wear and juggle um so I mean I have complete confidence in council member husband um serving as president but I also just want to articulate some concerns that I have thank you coun further discussions on the motion okay seeing on all those in favor signify by saying I I iose itions recusal motion carries 70 I here by word g to council president congratulations thank you council president pel appreciate it um and definitely heard uh that's stone for sure um but thank you all I really look forward to a productive fun uh year and uh look forward to work working to continue and improve on the work that past presidents have done to um improve our Communications and um also our our working relationships with staff I think there's been

a lot of work put into that and and it showed so um I I think that will that will be part of the fun part um okay up next we have um nominations for council president pro 10 I nominate council member skip second there is a motion by council member Hil and the second by council member any further discussion sound good to you yep okay all in favor say I any oppos or extensions all right congratulations council president pro thank you next up we have uh Council May or mayor Pro 10 nomin for mayor I'd be interested if no one else is haven't done it in a while I second that all right we've got a motion for council member l a second by council member Anderson other discussion all in favor say I anyos or exensions congratulations mayor okay next up we have committee assignments um or no we not jumping the committee assignments I need this agenda we're going to have a conversation about standing committees um it is said to Beed by council member list counc I'll yield to you and I you got opinions you put out a two-page document feel like I I'm assuming everyone's read it I've read it and I think you made your points pretty clear I have I have some responses to that when you're ready well I I won't go over it too much I do know that um there's been running concerns expressed from a number of quarters that our committies aren't functioning as intended um on the memo I indicate that what I believe is my understand of the purposes they serve both for the council itself and for working

with the administration I would summarize that by saying that from an Administration point of view our committees are important and successful from a council point of view I think they're they they're not functioning as intended in terms of focusing discussion dividing the workload evening out the workload um so there's been some dissatisfaction expressed in them I share that dissatisfaction um under the possible changes to consider is we could just keep things as they are um and try to make them work as they have worked for many years uh or we could dissolve them and if we did that we' have to do a number of things in terms of how we handle SCH schuling of the meetings how we handle Liaisons with departments still having kind of a contact person there's a number of changes uh some advantages and we could get some other advantages by instead of getting rid of the Committees rather doubling down on them and understanding that they we use them in one way and one way only and maybe we could start treating them a little differently in years's past um committees have actually hosted um roundtables and other discussions we could meet on Alternate times committees aren't locked into meting meeting on Monday there's nothing in any Charter anywhere that says the committee work sessions need to be in the same day as the council itself I really wanted to open up the discussion to look for Solutions uh I'm not going to make a motion to eliminate uh committees but I'd like to hear from

other people uh whether or not they share some of my concerns and whether or not they have other ideas or approaches that we can take okay I'll yield to um I'll go second if that's okay okay I'll I'll be I'll try to be brief so I want to provide some historical perspective on uh committees and what the what they do and what I've noticed over the years if you look at the um in your packet the amount of meetings the frequency they they pretty dwindled pretty much uh to some to zero for climate action for example and others have um kind of I I don't know if compromise is the right word but it's just kind of all over the map and what's I think has happened is that we've we've done this differential treatment to the committee of the whole and so instead of placing an item um in front of certain committees we've deferred to going to a committee of the whole not every time but oftentimes and I think that's had an impact on the amount of meetings that are happening for the for the Committees and so what we're not doing is we're not providing for the um the expertise of the committee um um uh we're not acknowledging the uh the importance and value of the committee structure I think if we simply went back to not moving things to the committee as a whole by by default and really try to focus in on maintaining the committee structure that we'd be better off and and I I'm facing one this month um I assume that I will be in some Fashion on the Public Safety Committee and we have um a lot

of discussion around the jail um planning and oversight um process the deal Leach uh Clinic coming to The Division Street property the response division wants to do a presentation to a city council I think it might be housed better within Public Safety and inviting all the council members to attend the meeting and I think that we you know that's something that I got you know got to remember is that we're we're uh open to coming to any meeting for any committee and so maybe we could just kind of rethink that that structure to to some degree and so that's really I I just wanted to respond to uh what council member liquis had put out um over the weekend or last week I think it very well thought out um and and I think it's really important for us to during these um during these meetings for reord to um to really consider you know how we do business basically so thank you for the the input I appreciate that that's so the reason why I wanted to defer is because I um think my comments tag on to this pretty well I like the idea of the Committees and I think we need to go back to that and and be mindful to put the work in the committee so that it could be focused I'm not that open to having meetings at different days and times because I think it's a scheduling nightm it's hard for the public if you know like planning was going to meet on a Thursday at 2 it also pulls staff out staff are obligated to show up on Council Mondays and now we're asking them to not only be prepared for

Council Mondays but prepare for other days and times for the meeting um so I like everything kind of in a nice package I also I attend every work session and when it's scheduled on one day that allows that to happen and I've even if I'm not commenting during Public Safety it allows me to really hear the discussion so that when it comes back to council I feel more prepared so I think scheduling to be able to be uh to participate fully would be hard if the meetings were spread across the week I know I would be missing some and I I feel that would uh not enhance me in my contribution when it comes to committee as a whole for um decision but one thing that pep peeve might be a little strong but one thing that I found kind of disconcerning over the last last few years is that um when a council member who is not on a committee and not a chair of a committee proposes something during um old and new but it is taking um staff's time um so somebody has an idea they propose it but it takes that time from another section um without discussing to that uh committee chair it's very difficult so one of the things that I've been really pushing is how having a organizational list of all of the legislative work that are um are Department uh leaders are working on that way if somebody brings something forward and it has to do with planning we have this list and then what I would like is that kind of collegial collaboration that if I'm chair of planning and somebody has a really good idea not

that it wouldn't be supportive but have that conversation with that um committee chair to say this is something I'd like to bring forward and then that committee chair can talk to staff and say okay this is going to come forward I would like the information on these projects that we have how close to completion are they and be prepared to present that so that we can make a very informed decision it doesn't mean that someone's idea can't come forward but perhaps it's going to be delayed three months before it gets implemented because we're so close to another project I think of um something that I proposed over four years ago which was um inclusionary zoning and it kept getting bumped back on the work agenda and no fault to staff it's just we as a council would decide something new proposed at Merit and staff would take that lead and then Focus their time on it but there are projects that have great value but I want to make sure that if something's coming forward if I'm going to talk to Dan about something that really is about Public Safety I think you know that good partnership as counselors is to have that discussion have him be able to say you know this is great talk about you know well actually there's a lot of that being done here maybe we can amend that to add it to it or if it's a standalone okay I'm going to go talk to staff and then that way when we bring It Forward staff are prepared to really inform us where they are in their work progression and how this could be

fit into something they're working on or what's going to be delayed in that process so that's my ask going forward in this year is just better communication amongst us so that we're not hijacking previous council's good work and delaying it because staff now have a new priority doesn't mean that your work doesn't come forward but I would like for us to be informed in how we prioritize it and I think that will make stronger work at the city level and definitely enforce the work of a of a committee by making sure that the committee is participating in um that new work coming forward my ask I've been thinking about this a little bit and um part of my my thinking is that the rather than the structure of the Committees the work of the Committees is what I would call very organic meaning it es and flows when issues come up or don't and um and then it all depends on how the committee deals with that work that's the way that I see it and I know in my tenure on the parks and recck board I regularly sit down with Nicole and other staff and say what's coming down the pike what are we dealing with um what are the what are the main programmatic priorities that we have to work with and and I know I've done that on some of the other committees as a member talking to the staff not necessarily as the chair but just to get an idea but nothing prohibits a committee from either setting a schedule of regular meetings or calling special meetings with the with the designated staff on whatever

issues are coming up and I would prefer to see that work that way so that um it isn't like you have to meet every month per se if there's no reason to have a meeting why have it but that if there are meetings outside of the Monday meeting that they be focused on the issues coming forward that we that the committee has to think about and consider before it comes to the MonDay meeting but nothing prohibits that from happening I I would imagine it would be up to the committee chair and the administrative um person to work that out well I go back and forth about this I mean I I appreciate having the the Committees but I think that if we're going to continue having committees yes Council H was saying we would need to sort of revitalize that and come to an agreement about how how work's going to be delegated and ensuring that the Committees whether that's agenda bill right topic specific that things or I thought also you know committees in the past as Council marquist had highlighted have been used for more in-depth work session so it's like well maybe if they're just small agenda items that right need a um a vote they could right go someplace else but it's a more in-depth discussion um and maybe presentation versus what it seemed like has happened is that those work sessions are going to committee the whole because there seem to be you know sort of large topics of interest to the to the whole Council um since I don't know I guess it was probably during the pandemic when we were

remote started well in and serving as council president I mean was attending all committee meetings and have continued to do so and expect that I will continue to do so regardless of the format primarily because of what council member Anderson was saying in hindsight now I can't imagine right just voting on things coming before committee the whole after they've been in committee without having been present for those committee discussions I feel like there's usually whether it's through staff presentations or you know committee members questions or others I mean those are usually Rich discussions and so um I just feel like there has to be some consensus about how committees would be utilized and is it just wanting to send right everything to particular committees based on topic whether it's big small or indifferent or um yeah and if we were going to keep committees I guess then readdressing the Committees that we have those standing committees and whether there's any need for change right if there weren't climate issues in the committee didn't meet all year I mean we previously had a finance committee that had gotten rolled into committee the whole it makes sense to you know have a finance committee again I mean there would be open for a discussion about what what those committees would look like and what our topics when we're thinking about the comp plan right what would be the best use of of committee time but yeah it's a rich a rich discussion we had I'll go with counc

counc perspective is that committees are really meant to increase the efficacy of the council as a whole right because I think it's the council as a whole this vested with our legislative Authority and so to think about committees is either allowing us to do more work or work more efficiently and so um I think it's it's I would not either prefer we have full member committees if we're going to be investing more kind of early decision making on topics of like for instance junk bees I would be not happy if a junk bees ordinance that I wrote was to go to a planning committee I wasn't on right um so I think uh either full seven member committees or continue to have this kind of bias towards committee the whole for things with um you know council-wide interest um it doesn't feel like our current use of committees is particularly necessary but I I don't think it's wildly problematic either so yeah that's my two SS um I think there are some problems with how our committees are being used um but I think it comes down to what you were saying Jace about eec of accountable we whole are we better with or without them right now we're not much better with them but I think if we did things to strengthen or use them more fully then we'd be better off with the um so for example the climate committee was a victim of the commit the whole difference thing we had two briefings they both went to the committee um I do think that and I shared that committee and so I I mean I I talked to

Administration and staff about this I think that also indicated um an issue with the pace and the resourcing for climate issues so that was also kind of a canaran ni colear so it separate from two things uh one a resourcing issue at the administration level and then two the community the whole problem um I go back to when you were planning Shar Dan like I don't know eight nine years ago uh when we were entertaining uh an initial series of renter reforms and you held work sessions on a number of issues Roundtable things I was not on the committee I sat in the audience and I watched those committees and they were there was a very good use of the committee as a genuine work session I think we could go towards doing that I know that Lisa you don't like the idea of planning committee to on a Thursday I agree that's probably problematic in many cases but I also remember some special meetings we had there were more like Round Table discussions with labor organizations when we were developing the Apprentice initiative that was a that was a an an outof usual work group that met together as a noticed committee because it it it needed we needed to have a big meeting and we couldn't have it around the board table because it really needed to be public and so it was that's another good way we've used communes in the past that we haven't done um recently I also think that we have um a lot one of the things you teach the public early on start asking about like I didn't see happening in the

evening you you have to teach the public a lot goes on in the committee meetings in the afternoon and they in the afternoon and many people are working so another possible use for committee meeting is a Thursday evening meeting I say this knowing most my Thursdays are busy and most my Wednesdays and most of my Tuesdays I'm double booked everything but Friday people don't want to meet on Fridays which is fine not complaining um but evening a special evening committee meeting might sometimes be the ticket and it might make that committee important again when we have something like a round table or like a work session this is not going to happen every meeting it may happen only once a year if the topic calls for it but if we're going to keep committees I think we need to look for ways of actually using them and sometimes that means treating them as more than the sort of way we've been doing it which is not bad but that's suitable for some topics but not for all top some kind of processes or decisions and not for others especially if for having spend like a round table discussion or an exploratory session or a public engagement session those probably aren't best in the afternoon that's good for presentations and discussions of issues so um I would like to see us do what we can to utilize the Committees well so they're actually adding value uh to the pro comme to the council as a whole mayor has some inut um well I just think it's gery to keep in mind when we have more than 20

commun advisory groups that staff is meeting regularly in the evenings um certain departments more than others for sure but from planning and public works there's those directors have a lot of eing obligations so I know we're all busy all the time and but I just want to r besid that point [Music] more and I was just a tag on to that and I'm glad that mayor brought this up because I've attended some of those evening meetings um because it's frontloading something that's going to come to council so going to like the RAB um I was able to hear their discussion um they actually had asked a question of me um and so I think you know it was good as a counselor to be aware of those evening meetings um even though it's not a work session or around t table it is very informative of work that is coming our way um and and yes during Co we had listening sessions with the community and those were on um it was like what once a week and it was online but um you know there there will be special things that there will be that intense Workshop um but I I think our regular work coming through it's a lot to ask staff to meet at a a lot of diff different times um for things that could be handled on our our Council Mondays with scheduling and it's just not the director staff it's all the preparation it's our office staff it's the noticing it's going through legal so there's a lot of hands that touch even a work session and um and then I also agree as a uh you know as a chair of a um committee you

know it's important to me as needed with staff but I also think there's limitations perhaps with open meeting or legal to have three from um a committee meeting with the staff as a kind of a de facto work session so um you know I think we can meet individually um to go over agendas or talk about um issues or ideas coming forward but to just have a kind of informal work session with three representatives of a committee I think we are limited because it has to be open at that point just a time check got two minutes for the specific topic think I've got Hill Williams and then Stone I'll be brief so in addition to the um the boards and commissions that the mayor pointed out there are 33 boards and commissions that were're expected to have some involvement here as council members so I I I hear you p number but I just I I think I'm adding off Monday um meetings is is just harder schedule wise and I think that if we do it right more efficient on Mondays um and we if we start earlier then that's okay too but I think that we can get pretty much everything done on a schedule and I just want to throw this out there real quick um um I think that we might want to consider consolidating um climate and natural resources under one committee and removing natural resources away from um Public Works potentially just maybe for just consideration that's my yeah the I'm listening to the conversation and like I said earlier I think that the Committees are more organic and and so the question I'm

asking is are we talking about institutionalizing a structure for the for the for the committees or are we talking about letting the committee determine the best use of their time to conduct the business that needs to be done but but it doesn't necessarily have to be every second Wednesday this committee meets it could be there's five issues coming our way we need to have this and if we and if the committee did have a meeting it would have to be posted and publicized but that's part of the work and um but is it something that needs to be institutionalized or is it something that needs to be up to the committee to determine some of those things I'll go so I think the I mean the work coming forward is the work coming forward and certainly happens organically but this discussion is about how that work is right it's handled before the the council um and so my question actually was going to be for um the mayor and maybe your team if there has been any specific approach or not right to how agenda items are right place is there a prioritization by staff to you know have those go to Committee in the whole in certain circumstances or not um because for me I don't necessarily see a clear right lination or if it's just considered on a caseby Case basis but I think it'd be helpful to know if there is some priority from from your side it's a good question I think we're still evolving our process um we former council president Hamill expressed a desire to be more engaged in how um we bring

items forward to council set the agendas and also which if it's um a subcommittee or the committee as a whole and I think we found some success in that but I think we can still do better and we talked about it the retreat trying to even um and it's been an ongoing conversation with the Department it's like how we create more coaching items bringing it forward trying to even out the workloads not going from 140 page packets to 650 it's that Whiplash that can occur and backing it up so that you're getting your packets in advance and so I think all of that will be continuing to try and do some continuous Improvement more three thats we council president has been throughout the year to keep improving on that process and was like because I would I guess just in closing say that I don't probably at this stage don't support having the committee meetings on the off Monday regularly because then that would mean that a council's meeting every Monday and although work is happening every Monday I think the the staff time from our Council staff as well as the mayor's staff to prepare every week when you're thinking about the lead time on publication and you know releaseing materials I just don't know if that's the best use of time and it would make us most efficient um but I do agree that having you know work sessions that are maybe unique and um happen once you know a quarter or once every six months that are then you know specially scheduled and and publicized you know I think there's

going to be an opportunity for that but that would be the exception rather than the rule um I'll add that I think I I think the committee structure that we have uh can be us more efficiently out for that over getting rid of it um it seems like in the past when I started um there were a lot more threepers committee meetings um certainly than there are now of course at the beginning I I sat it on every meeting because I was trying to learn through the fire hose um um of what being on Council is all about but um I I think one I think a couple couple Solutions are as Dan pointed out more of the committee of the whole I was that having going to Committee of the could actually be going committees um I think that there is also potentially some consolidation um of our committees if there but that is I think I think we need the input of Staff as well um if staff is looking at the climate committee and going oh no I have 12 meetings that I have prepared to present for the climate action committee we wouldn't wouldn't want to ni that committee um or roll it in with natural resources but also Public Works clearly has the the largest workload um and it's splitting up public works as it has been in the past is a better option potentially even for St um that could be a good idea we've had a finance committee in the past um planning and Community Development was one Committee in the past and not too there's some options there as well to maybe even out some of the the obligations in terms of

how often the Comm those committees meet um I don't know that it's necessary we have to do this at this meeting either is is this something where we could consult with staff and have staff consider what would might be more most efficient and helpful for them and then restructure this I don't know is that a question for Allan can we restructure our committees the middle of the year we have we could do that um just an idea if we want to move on um but and my one final point was thinking about ways to make the use of these committees more efficient I find that as a committee chair meeting with the head of the Department of that department on a regular basis is really helpful um I would go a step further and say maybe the committee meeting with that department head on a regular basis could be helpful as well um of course those meetings would have to be noticed but they could be informal on Zoom um potentially just a thought for for using these committees efficiently um I think that the the extra communication with staff is always really helpful for me and I think council members as a whole mayor I'll just jump in and add one other um piece of conversation that we've had internally in the department head team is when we have a regular um a a relevant kind of Staff level more of the sausage making kind of meeting and strategic initiatives is a good example and it's relevant to a committee's interest inviting that committee chair and you got to see a little bit of that with the

skate park conversation we invited council member and in that was an area of interest and she got to see that and we found value having you in the room and I think it was reciprocal you got to see the city's cross- departmental deliberations on that and learn a little bit more and we've like to do more of that so as we understand your interest on the committee assignments when it makes sense there'll be more opportunities for engagement would it make sense that say say over the well I'm not going to put a timeline out there would it make sense to work with the administrative uh staff and have some sort of a oh task force on on our council member Hamil's suggestion about reviewing the Committees and changing some of the structure with that be a sensible thing to do over the next couple of months let's say if any changes yeah can be identified I think the options are we make some quick changes now like we in the past during these meetings or if we want to do a bit more through a deep dive we put it on pause and work with with the staff to and and and maybe as president you could appoint a couple of us to work on that if that was possible with the administrative staff yes I'm so um so if there was interest in making any changes now my concern is the time and interest at the time spent to create a task force and revisit this I mean could be a long-term interest as we um yeah look forward but we're moving work forward this year um my proposal and I guess it could be a formal

motion would be to so have the six standing committees as as was proposed by someone so climate action and natural resources finance and economic development Parks and Recreation Finance Finance Community Economic Development non community and then planning and Community Development and Public Works um but linking I know that a number of the Community Development issues and planning been sort of very closely aligned and so how we separate those has been questionable to me but um anyway or if there are other suggestions could I follow up on that if you were to make a motion your motion would be to have the standing committee be climate and natural resources finance and economic development parks and wreck planning Community Development public State J and equity and Public Works correct when am i counting did I get too many fingers no that's that's seven committees 19 that's six okay that's six they right yes um I would second your motion could could you repeat the motion again so it would be for the six committees to be climate action and natural resources finance and economic development Parks and Recreation planning and Community Development public health safety Justice and equity and Public Works yes just to speak to that a little bit um I I do support it but my my only concern is finance and economic development because Economic Development really has been external whereas Finance is internal and so they it just seems very disjointed to have those two things it'd be I mean

whereas like you know climate and um natural resources tend to devv tail well together um because there's a lot of overlap there's not a lot of overlap between the internal Finance of how the city is spending money internally versus the economic development which has been very external lens on creating jobs on the outside so um I personally liked having um the the finance being kind of going to Committee of the whole because it is um it wasn't presented a lot we all do the work sessions on deciding for the budget um versus um just a recommendation at the end to stamp through the approval so um I guess I would make a um a motion to amend to create Economic Development still as being an independent and finance staying in Committee of the whole either of those motions um but huh which motions have you not heard a second Micha second oh okay thank you that a fun question yeah um so my my thinking is land use is a significant bucket alone and so the Community Development portion of um of that department and I even think some maybe some of the broader programmatic non-land use work that yeah I think Community Economic Development as a committee still makes sense and then planning to be more specific to to land use make sense to me is that what we so it would be planning it would be Community um and economic development it's just not hooking Finance to community and economic development keep finance and Committee of the whole and that would be my Amendment to the list as presented

awesome sure so in Ence just to clarify that basically just changes to create climate and natural resources yeah just one change yeah yeah okay um discussion on the amendment see none all in favor say I can I get was a second on the J any okay Amendment passes um any further discussion on Hannah's original motion C I I I do like the motion um I think climate and natural resources seems to be a very natural fit hopefully it fits for staff um I know that there two separate entities but I see a lot of collaboration um that can happen and perhaps putting it along one committee will help further enhance how climate really um devb Tails into a lot of um the work um so that we'll see a little bit more um action in that area I think it's happening but I think it will help highlight and kind of create a better focus so thank you um I know council member Hamill had brought it up and thank you for consolidating that counc Stone uh Council Stone a couple of words I don't like to hear we're going to do this and hopefully staff will do this or do that I don't like that and that's why I'm not terribly supporting this motion because I think it needs further study from both sides of the of the aisle here and not the aisle but from all of us before we make a final decision on restructuring something and that's my only reservation and I don't believe that the process of doing that has to take a long time but it has to it should be done in a way that's not just we're having a meeting and we make

a major decision like this structurally I think it needs to I think all the parties need need to be brought in into it so that those words are never said hopefully they can accept this um and we are 50 minutes of time yeah I mean that was going to be my question to staan about public works and natural resources and how much additional work that would create create for staff or if that's a natural split or not because in upon reflection I mean climate action climate is no longer under Public Works climate is now in the mayor's office and so that's not as natural of a bit right as it might feel as far as the content um because they're they're separate so I'll withdraw the motion and um the Committees will stand as there you can draw draw with a second oh with a second okay okay yeah mayor um how about as an action item that we take this proposal and discuss it in department meeting and we will come back to you with Reflections or any suggested amendments but we will discuss council member Stone motion and reflect and to come back I think that that seems like a good course of action to me I mean I I would probably be fine with voting on restructuring and then have the mayor's office come back with recommendations um either or keep it as it is and also do that um my opinion I think I think it would be good to hear from staff what they are foreseeing in terms of plans for for what they'll be presenting to council over the next year and um planning to make our meetings as efficient

as possible and using uh the committee start structure as efficient as possible comparison so pathway going forward when we have an active motion that's been second so we have to take a vote on so either one we amend it to delay the vote until we get feedback I and then if that passes I assume that can stand or the motion would have to fail and I don't want the motion to fail because I think it's a solid indication of the direction we want to go um and if it fails in a way and because of motions if they fail if we want to bring something back I think it has to be the very next meeting if it mirrors what we've just made a motion on in order to make that change so I think we start getting into kind of a sticky situation so with that not seeing a clear pathway because I don't want it to fail I will make a motion that we defer the decision and vote on this until we have uh the the mayor's feedback which I would like to request at our next meeting that's sort of like a motion to table yeah that is ation to table yeah okay so motion to table you to table though you have to specify exactly the triggering motion bring it back from the table so you would have to connect it to a report from the administration the motion the table requires a triggering event to put it back on theable that's where I would like to hear back from the mayor at our next meeting is that the I understand your motion if your motion is a motion to table this item until the administration prepares a report with

its feedback on Council committee structure is that your motion did I second your motion thank you okay and just in terms of the decisions we need to make today I think where we're Landing is whoever is on the climate action committee has to be okay with potentially gaining natural resources was on the Public Works committee has to be potentially okay with losing natural resources that feels fine let's vote and do it yeah okay and yeah we can always completely shake it up too okay any further discussion need to V all in favor sign signify everything iions okay so um next up we've got discussion on boards and fitties uh boards FS assign assignment are we doing committe no we're doing committee assignments after so um after according to this that's fine because we'll just do them all in one to um may I request that we move the committee assignments first because that helps determine I think xfo assignments in my mind based on oh that's right okay yeah okay let's do that b okay well we start with climate action uh do want to do chairs first go chairs I would nominate Lisa to climate action chair and potential future change committee with similar name I'll second okay forther discussion all in favor saying I post Lisa is X chair community and economic development I'd be interested in obtaining that second second any further discussion all in favor second the trial thingst economic chair Parks and Recreation chair I'd like to hold on to that one second discussion PA all in favor s

five by saying I oppos exensions thank Williams um Landing committee I nominate Council request second any further discussion signify by saying [Music] I public health safety Justice and Equity chair nominate council member ham second all any forther discussion favor signify the iOS orions safety Justice like resources any further discussion here all in favor signify by saying I okay and then back to the staff uh spot for cl action I would like to continue on that committee second any further discussion we do just do I guess and it could be if there are not two people in we can do the one and then yeah fill everything in yeah is there a third that's interested in that one we can come back we okay um so we'll vote on the two uh we'll put the haml for climate action for the discussion all in favor signified by saying I okay moving on toity and economic development we've got two spots there I think I was on that one yes I nominate myself s and anybody else interested back okay we vote okay skip that one for a vote parks and re I was also on that one anybody interested in [Music] that okay we'll skip that one for now uh planning lqu is chair two spots nominate myself okay got Lisa so I I do just want to name often we are very close alignment on perspectives of planing but I think about a recent working reform discussion and if we're hoping for more of those um items to go to to a specific committee first I think it's important that we maintain a representativeness of the the

council as a whole um so either I think my preference would be for those important planning items that we'll have next year to continue to come committed the whole or to um yeah think carefully about our represent how representative our um committee question I have Anderson and livs great example um I see diverse opinion on planning given that the way the boat went um if that boat went to planning um at this point there would have been a 21 instead of being more of a silo of complete support so I I think diversity of opinion was really important and I think that would be gathered with the current names on planning I was going to say any I believe any item can go to Committee of the whole around a committee if it's moved and seconded correct the council can MO something to a committee of yeah so um if that can happen as in certain issues or or something like that where nothing really changes it could the committee could be bypassed and it goes to a committee of the whole correct okay procedurally an item would always stay in committee until a dispose of it but the council retains the authority to pull any item back committee the whole right that's kind of what I was asking sorry or to initially assign it or to initially assign it yeah so Council can initially assign and can take away from any committee and if if something did come up to the committee of the whole the committee of the whole could have sign it somewhere correct yeah okay um just to highlight as well I mean the

current committee structure is that the committee is our advisory in nature in making recommendations to the full Council so no action being taken by individual committees um that vote still comes before the full Council the full Council yeah okay it is possible to nominate more than the required number and then we have to have a run if you if if you thought that your voice was we not suggesting you do it I'm just saying you have options there [Music] um yeah I mean I do understand the advisory nature of the Committees I think it's it's just good for us to be uh I think explicit and upfront with each other about making sure that this these committees continue to AFF effectuate um I think the the will of the of the majority and and yeah I I I so sure I I'll go ahead and self for okay okay now we have GRE onne yeah and so we've experienced this in the past I don't remember um yeah go ahead s for question for staff in that looking at the comp plan the work coming forward with the comp plan is that expected to then be delegated to committee based on subject area or to committee the whole or will the bulk of that be planning um because if so I have interest in planning as well we're going to have a pretty full plate for planning uh when you look at the mayor's executive order that initiatives that are coming for just going off the top of my head we're going to have parking reform discussion middle housing discussion Landmark tree discussion um design review discussion mfte

discussion and conf so there's a lot and to your point it will be how we split that up is still being determined we have to come back with decision yeah so I would self nominate them okay so we've got we got four people left and in the past yeah I'm looking for it what we have done is we've given everybody an opportunity to ple their case yeah um and then voted on each uh nomination separately my memory serves to do Choice after close we will be taken to choose one these by voice or by ballot Ty ads that's for officers the number of nominations shall not exceed three okay thank you for looking that up iation support so okay Okay so we've got uh skip can and Wasa interested um I will give each of you two minutes can you do that skip two minutes max oh Lord to to plead your cases to why we should Pi you for this committe it's it's been an interest of mine since I I have been elected because these are the issues [Music] I believe that are that are are going to have the greatest impact on the development of our city down the road and um I've been on the committee now three years and um I've seen the some of the development of things happening and I just want to continue to contribute to that okay coun Anderson thank you um well I basically um planning and uh development has been an area of interest of mine for about 25 years from working on a neighborhood plan um to being on the Planning Commission for four years of which during that time I was able to go through our last full

comprehensive plan and then currently being on uh the planning committee I think it's going to be a huge lift over the next couple of years and I believe experience matters there is a lot of technical information that's going to be coming forward it comes fast and rapid and so having the experience and the expertise and knowledge about the language and the content um and being able to really kind of fine-tune in order to address some of our um most pressing comput um Community needs is going to be very important work coming forward and I feel that um not only the bandwidth and the background but the passion for it makes me a good candidate to serve on this committee thank you um so I have not had opportunities on the um planning committee to the interested in the in the past this is an area of Interest I think as highlighted by my colleagues and by staff this is going to be a very heavy lift especially over the next year um I think with my legal background and just attention to detail when we're reviewing right proposals or ordinance is coming forward um just paying close attention to not only the underlying intent but how you know proposed um legislation would you know impact the community upon implementation I think is really really really critical to be doing that work um early on and trying to always you know I don't approach our work as a council member with a a predetermined agenda it really is trying to look at things um with an open mind from all perspectives um to

make sure that we come up with the best um the best end result okay um can I I just want to interject I Michael I'm I'm gonna disagree with you no you're right that's only for coun that's only for president this is you can have as many nominations as you want for a a Comm I was about to I didn't know whether to raise it because I thought you had okay so um so I used a random number generator and gave it I assigned everybody number used random number generator to see who goes first um and it picked Lisa so um each member may vote affirmative for as many nominees as our positions we each get two votes each get two votes that's the way it would work great okay yeah two those okay so we will start with that's M Anderson any further discussion seeing none all in favor signify by saying iOS wait a minute what are you doing sure okay z i HFF hi Dan H hi SK Williams all right Anderson hi Michael hi and J yeah that's s okay um random generator picks skip next roll call please discussion roll call Hannah Stone no Dan H hi Skip Williams hi Lisa Anderson no niist no J cotton hi what was that I and Hol no this is hard I know this is I want to add as council members we all have a lot of influence over all the legislation that's going to come um before the planning was that 43 or 34 4 okay okay well no we I thought it was three was it 34 I thought it was 34 34 it was 34 I that's 34 34 so we do need to yeah okay sorry and sorry it failed three we have Hannah can member Stone next roll call

please an Stone hi Dan hi Skip Williams hi Lisa Anderson hi Michael hi hi J Scot hi everybody okay was that I don't it's not my favorite um one thing we paid attention to that was how much general interest this area has and so as we talk about what belongs in committee or Committee of the whole we be keeping that in mind minut um public health safety Justice and Equity two folks interested got Michael do that again okay uh any further discussion saying none all in favor number five by saying I allst okay I'm sorry can I get that I that for those uh skiping Michael and Public Works natural resources I self nominate um I'll s nomin anybody else okay any further discussion all in favor sotify by saying I I hey back to the top community and economic development we've got one spot with Jason Dan anybody else okay uh this is voting for Dan and Hannah um any further discussion all in favor by saying I any oppos and then parks and W this doesn't work though we got a problem yeah we have a problem because skip needs to be on freaking yeah he's on he's a chair he can't he can't he's already chair so we can't [Music] yeah should be should be on two in a chair two in a chair right yeah you on two like on public works [Music] and sorry who for J that right 73 hi can we get I'm I'm getting confused so we're focusing right now on economic development and then know you were concerned that skip wasn't on while I was saying that we were voting on Dan and myself to serve on community Economic

Development with Jace but skip is the chair of parks and wreck and currently is serving on public health safety and justice but needs a third ass signment yeah so Jace can be on Parks no problem but skip can't be on Parks twice okay so I need to be on you do okay but then who has too many nobody I think it was just a it's just the yeah order I can move the Parks from you want to move to on Parks have to skip onment who was on the climate action uh chair me and Dan Dan and I okay that's right should it's not too many it's just in wrong places missing I will add that on Parks you get to name Parks it is the fun committee so who was the third one on Parks wck we talking about pull it off with just too somebody needs to switch one person will need to switch somebody needs to switch with skip on something or well if Dan and Hannah stay on community Economic Development then yeah I can move from Community Economic Development to Parks okay okay so it's jcu and Skip sharing parks and then it's Jace Dan and now skip on community Economic Development okay okay so I think we need two votes one for the two people for par and re and one to add skit to community economics development okay so Jason Hanah on Parks and W uh on that one any further discussion okay all in favor I post okay Economic Development I skip to that one placing new I wouldn't kick you off all in favor signy okay we did it it okay that's painful get down yes I have a request could you please or have Kelly read all the

committee assignments out loud we have staff listening and they're preparing to configure on base for this and heed me to clean this yeah go ahead Kell okay so council president poie Huffman council president pro Williams mayor Pro with Michael for climate action that be chaired by Lisa Anderson and joined by Michael list and Van ham for comunian economic development that will be chaired by J cotton with Dan ham and Skip Williams joining Parks and Recreation will be chaired by Skip Williams with jce cotton and Hannah Stone the planning committee will be chaired by Michael oqu with Lisa Anderson and Han Hannah Stone public health safety Justice Equity will be chaired by Dan hanel with Michael and St Williams Public Works and natural resour will be chaired by Hannah stone with Lisa Anderson and J cotton thank you so much okay okay we are definitely behind on schedule um our next item for conversation is the other assignments and questions um counc Stone and I the ones that brought this issue up and I can start just by saying you know we tend to power through all of these assignments um pretty quickly wanting to get out of here and I haven't experienced really stopping to think about some of these other assignments in particular and um should we should we think about some of those I think the big questions in my mind are some of the boards that we have council members that are ex official members of um kind of revie those why do we have see members on those boards are there

boards we're leaving out do we maybe not are there boards that we shouldn't have or don't need to have members on anymore um why did we have people on those boards to begin with so uh I've been doing a little bit of talking with folks um yeah I think board like sustainable connections plown partnership um which are boards that I on have been on for five years in particular were the ones that came with a question for me because I was starting to think well why aren't we on some other boards that are similar um if we're on these boards and talking with the executive directors of those boards I don't really remember how it came to be that we had council member I think was on those courts I think that they find the information that sometimes shared um from board members to be really useful but they're non voting members so [Music] um they're not you know full board members in the sense of of having a vote but maybe some other folks uh can remember why yes Michael you you called out tourism chamber and partnership partnership and sustainable connections and suable connections yeah I mean in each of those cases there were times where it just felt like there want to be better communication and there was there was at times there was a feeling of neglect and then the leaon position was a way of addressing that neglect maybe it's the wrong tool to address the neglect but I mean historically each of those organizations uh was very excited and welcoming to have that leason position at

first because it it opened up doorways um maybe we could have solved it in a different way but that's how we yeah gu brand yeah just to add on to what Michael was saying um my understanding when I started was uh this was a way for C members because there would be six because the the chair the president does not serve in in these capacities unless they choose to as CC St did during her tenure it's a way for us to kind of have uh kind of feelers out in the community for us to be more connected with with the community but I think that council loquist is correct that I think this might not be the right um instrument so I would I'm just going to put this out there I don't I'm going to make a formal motion but I think sustainable connections the walking Museum board and the downtown bham partnership because of the ex oficio nature of the membership it just to me it doesn't serve a purpose and we could um we could be making presentations we could invite those groups to come and uh talk to committees or the commit as a whole um I think one other other criteria that we should be considering are it makes sense to have government to govern relationships that makes sense to me so walkom uh Council government for example um and then um organizations that we have Financial contracts with we might want to think about what that what that looks like and then um you know organizations like walk and Transportation Authority where they um where it's a very broad organization that has lots of

connections with the community and I realized that this is a discussion we probably have for the rest of the day today but I just want to put that thing out there that the the three identified sustainable connections the museum board and downtown bingh partnership I would um I I would be okay with that at least for a period of year I was call so the museum um board this year has gone through a a pretty dramatic change because there they're less Affiliated directly with the city um they're putting the director back under being a staff but as far as the board has a certain level of autonomy but we do have a strong financial connection to them so I think I would be careful about at least this year dropping Thea on from the board because they are in that process of reorganization and um and I I think it's useful to kind of keep tabs on those changes because they are looking at um you know how they select members and there certain things and and the ability to answer questions um it may be appropriate in the future but um the museum and board is not what it was two years ago um and so I'd like to see how that shakes out this upcoming year as they kind of have a little bit more autonomy um being more independent from the city directly um and I don't know enough about Mount Baker theater but you know I see it as kind of being something similar they have a certain level of autonomy but there's a strong financial interest from the city because of it's kind of a city resource mayor I

appreciate uh council member Anderson's comments about that and I will say that those um boards could be of interest as conversations about restructuring the public facilities to District takes place over the next year too I think that would be an additional reason to have a council leas on both theaker and the museum as we we go through that conversation and Patricia's replacement another discussion just all well maybe just because I think it's useful to put everything out the table before you di up um I definitely over subscribed last year I'm to drop couple um I have a conflict with the marina advisory committee and um I'm not sure the airport advisory committee is the best use of my time listen so um we have not met Quorum well than that so um uh so those two are up for grabs or I I mean I assume not yeah I mean similar to council member husman so president husman is thinking about yeah what the I mean what this list represents and how to select what's on the list right versus not on the list I think there are a number of um obligations that we take on as council members outside of our role as a council member I mean serving on right fast for I mean other hats that we wear and so trying to be really mindful about yes what is it that we are there as a council member specifically in a council member role right to answer questions or to be collecting information bring back to the council but to me that's you know that's a different sort of um Niche to to focus on and that

respect and then on our Council pages I was thinking about our profiles and you know biographies on the council page we could list what our independently right individually what our other involvement in the community may be as part of our profile but I feel like this list should be focused there and so what I was looking at is sort of are these Lea's on positions are they voting full pledge voting members or not of a particular entity or organization um and in concert with that was looking at our boards and commissions which the mayor mentioned you know over 25 or so boards and commissions and some of these we have representation on and some we don't and is there a Rhyme or Reason to you know why that is or isn't and um so it's definitely I agree with Council Hamill that it's a discussion that could go all day I would propose that this year at least as we go through the list you know I have some notes to yeah to not just have it be an automatic assignment but to have at least some discussion about whether to move forward or not or to table it or put Ain in it but um I would just like to not yeah move forward with the list as is yeah half of these are statutorily required half of them are not of the half that's not at least half of them I think are really valuable connections and then you get down to the quarter that I think is iffy airport one seems like probably the iffiest one on here and the Marine advisory committee maybe is also iffy because we're not interacting really

as City Council Members I've been attending the working Waterfront Coalition matter of fact Dan just called me up we're gon to be meeting um I find it really valuable Insight but frankly I'm I'm barely there as a city council member uh they they're different kinds of of entities I value my what I've learned in my connection but I mean those three I would sort of uh drop one's like the downtown Belling on Partnerships I served on that board xfo for about five six years during rough times when it was a downtown Renaissance Foundation nearly went bankrupt it was barely hanging on we were struggling to figure out as association with the city as their primary and sole funer at that point almost um I was there pushing a for the Main Street program as a city council member as a city council member I was supporting it because that has to do with State funding mechanism um however now maybe the downtown Bellingham partnership is in a different position in place so when I was there I was there as a council member advising them on what they needed to think about interacting with the city I don't know if those days maybe gone those it's a different time and place maybe the partnership is no longer needs to be have a Le on I don't know I'm not in those meetings anymore but I do think we need to be careful about the quarter like I said the half are required half are clearly related to City business it's the quarter and I would put some of those in the quarter thank you I I agree so but one

I I don't I haven't been on all of the um the assignments so I don't know which ones are mandatory that we're part of um I think there's some boards and commissions like we have somebody for sister cities but we don't have anybody for the RAB and so you know do we need where do we need to spend our time to be most useful so I would like to have a work session I think right now I mean we could almost just continue the status quo for the next month and some things that have a conflict that don't make sense to us as a council member maybe we just don't attend until we have that discussion what do we need to keep what could we possibly add and then Shi the assignments as needed but um I agree there's some that I've said on like the marina where you're not voting you're not necessarily contributing I mean it's great to have pizza for dinner but um do do you need to be there for two and a half hours on a Thursday night the airport even when I was on that they weren't hitting for and there's I think there it can be useful but is it really worth the time when there's maybe another committee that would be um much more beneficial to have that and so I anyway I I would like to see a work session where we can really identify which ones we don't have much of a choice and then which ones are most beneficial and what could we possibly add representation on a city you know City committee without creating a conflict well I can tell you right now probably the 10 that either were're statutorily

required to or there a government to government relationship or we need to yeah and I know we would like to keep on track for time and and get staff out for dinner too we do is just fill those twoth thirds or half now and leave it it's vacant okay yeah yeah just wanted to I Michael I think with sustainable connection I've got on a downtown partnership for five years too that that I think it perhaps with those organizations early on um the the Council on position was so valuable and now that those organizations have grown and so much different than they were um they're not needing us as much anymore um although the communication and the information sharing is always K and then yeah I just I know we we've had this discussion like pretty much every year when we go through this um it's not um what it looks like so um if if we just divy these up straight up just by numbers and that would be a completely uneven workflow so for the um there's two of them on that are not on here that I'm on and there and there is a council representative that's the response services division for walking County Community Health Department and they'll lead the law enforcement s of diversion policy um committee um out of the out of the response division used to be out of the prosecutor's office and then the the task for for incarceration prevention that's actually three roles it's not one and so it's not just serving on the broader task force I chair a very active and large behavioral health committee

that has have 25 members including city of Bellingham personnel and Walker County Personnel and then I'm also on the steering committee for the the task force as well that's three plus meetings a month it's scheduling all those meetings it's trying to get people to come and speak there's just a lot of responsibility so I just want to make sure that we're all clear and I I tend to agree with counc Anderson that it might be helpful for you know maybe we know the ones that we can just kind of pick today but we but coming back and really having a deep dive on these we all understand I just assume that you all probably are doing a lot of things that I can't see or it's not visible to the public so I I think maybe we talk about this in a a little further and I know that we're we've got our ledge people on the on the line here and I know we're way over time but I don't know if we could maybe we could pick some that just makes sense or we table the whole thing and come back to it I think we should point the ones that we know are kind of necessary like the fprt evly I'm I'm assigned there by the County Council right which is why I think we need to confirm it yeah okay okay um yes we gota get moving with B FKS online yeah that's so I guess just on that point like council member Hamill just mentioned I mean when you say you're appointed by the County Council I mean that's the other question it's like where are we here appointing a council member to represent us and where is it like the

opportunity Council I'm appointed by the opportunity Council not this body and so I think that's another line of division about you know yeah your role so I focus on where we have the or to appoint yeah as um it would be great to pick but I also think until we know all of the groups that we'll be Liaisons for it's it's kind of hard to distribute the work um I've got a couple things what Skip and I or WTA we need too that that's that's required by the governing documents to the organization yeah I have a meeting in a week and a half with yeah I think we need to go through and and there is one similar with the Mount Baker theater and things like that but if we just continue what we have until a later date would that uh cover it I I think I heard somebody mention that as an option that we just just keep the the list as is until we can sort out a little more of the other organizations and add some delete some okay so I guess two options President we just keep everything as it is right now um and then spend a work session taking some time to to Really hash it out uh or flip through through each one of these assignments pass on the ones that we don't need to appoint anybody um nominate folks for the ones that and go on the ones that are critical today um I guess take the easy way maybe show hands for which option you prefer does that work uh option one which is keep everything the same as it is now um well I guess discussion on those two options I think we've already had it yeah

yeah okay I I lean towards keeping it as it is if we can bring it back sooner than later um because I'm assuming and and correct me or like if if WTA needs to know who they are and if your names go forward as is but if in a month we switch it out they can approve we can we can insert a different name in there and a month you could do a change and it doesn't put you guys in concrete and no choice um because I I would like to know the balance because if we pick now and some groups meet monthly but then we're in a different group that needs quarterly um it could be kind of a an I don't want to say unfair the the workload balance could be dramatically different depending on which committees we're going to be representing right yeah yeah one one of the things when this came up to me and I was reading is what is the and maybe none of us know this except Michael what is what was the overall well no no you don't because when when when we chatted about it you said it went Way Beyond what um what are the criteria for adding an organ organization to this list obviously there's some government to government things there's some other reasons but um I think taking the time to look at the list and the ones that are optional would be we don't need to do do this this way anymore but there are others that we that we do need to to play that role and taking the time to figure that out I think is the best Avenue to go down okay uh yeah in the end of time I think we just reappoint everybody to

everything and buy ourselves time okay good yeah sounds good to me um we need to make a motion make a motion to reappoint everybody to every second any further discussion signify um by shrugging your shoulder we need a break uh yeah all of people are signifi sorry you're still in the airport okay um so I do want to get a chance to take a break we do have folks um expecting to start their agenda item at 210 I believe correct agenda for ledge is 210 to 240 it's 205 right now and we still have public comment discussion got that so um I'd like to start that on time we could take a break now or take a break after this one now break now five minutes back at 210 y okay we are recessed e [Music] e e e okay we'll bring it back um we will need a motion to move uh the legislative agenda item next any further discussion favor they saying I next up we have no agenda Bill 24385 a presentation of the 20125 State Legislative agenda City staff and contracted government relations team will present an introduction to the 2025 legislative session and the city's proposed 2025 legislative agenda May Kim are youing the conversation off sure I'm happy to and joining us today we have Nick fici and we have Luke h on the line so Nick and Luke are you know your background Luke amazing um I think many of you are aware that we approached entering this upcoming legislative session in a much more intentional way um we just decoupled from the port and the county and sharing one um one organization to

represent our combined interests and we have each gone through a process that named um individually who was best fed to represent and we're delighted that we have um picked the team Nick and who are here today and um I think it is fair to say that we feel like we um have already received more dress engagement and service um in the few months that contract has been finalized than we did in the previous year so we are very much looking forward to continuing to build our relationship with the team we had several members of council including former president parent president H and council member Stone join us along with other Council staff as we've gone through an intentional process of whittling what are our top priorities and for the coming year and I think while Nick and Luke can help share what that looks like and where we landed I think it's just also very important to say that we'll be paying close attention throughout the session and when opportunities arise or there momentum in certain areas we have a structure and a system to be nimble and take advantage so if your top priority you don't see reflected here it doesn't mean that we're not watching or we're paying attention and um that we wouldn't be able to take action if opportunity arises and so with that I'll let make thank you so much mayor we're very excited to be working with you and the rest of the folks here from the city um uh just by way of introduction I'm Nick federi um and I've been uh working at the capital

as a uh staff or lobbyist uh for 32 years now so uh uh a lot of experience working with a broad spectrum of issues um and and with Luke have partnered uh working with a number of other municipalities and thrilled to be working with you now um as a team as well uh my background is U uh comes out of Human Services health care and affordable housing and homelessness as well as um state and local government revenues um and so have a lot of experience hopefully to bring to uh uh to the team to partner with all of you around that Luke uh yes thanks again equally excited about the opportunity which I really appreciate Luke Esser um Nick's partner in this endeavor I I survived eight years as a state legislator uh some some time ago and I think it is has proven to be useful experience I I had particular experience in transportation and capital budget and some of the the legal issues I am an attorney and so uh we you know Nick and I I do uh have Specialties but at at various points in the session it really is all all hands on deck so uh you you'll find us joining together to to work on each and every issue when necessary though we do have particular areas of of specialty that we uh we we do specialize in and uh really appreciate the opportunity and I wasn't certain if staff was going to lead us through the uh the agenda if we were going to do that happy happy to proceed any way you would like um if you you are able to screen share do that work for either of you do you have that final

document I don't know I don't believe that we have the final document we have one from late December I don't know that we have the final one that um that council members have is it the one that's in the packet yeah maybe as that gets teed up um we can do a little level setting in terms of what we're facing this legislative session um as folks are aware um uh the Washington uh uh uh governance has been um with the Democrat in in Governor uh in the governor's seat since the early 80s um and with majorities for Democrats in both the house and the Senate um in Washington state that continues to be the case with uh uh attorney general Bob Ferguson being elected governor um he will take office on uh on next Wednesday January 15th um the uh Democrats added a seat to their major to each of their majorities in each house um uh there's now uh 59 Democrats uh in the 98 member House of Representatives and 30 Democrats in the 49 member um uh State Senate so still a strong uh majority for Democrats in uh in both of those houses um the state's biggest challenges as we move forward into uh the the 202527 bym as is certainly the case for local governments as well is severe funding shortfalls um for a lot of different reasons the um state is facing a um fairly unprecedented level of deficit as much as um $1 155 million dollar billion sorry with a B uh dollars over a four-year uh time Horizon Washington unlike any other state budgets Over a four-year uh forecast period um and that $15 billion

is the amount that needs to be reconciled uh for this banial budget and the ensuing uh banial budget um that either has to be done with um changes and assumptions about who is covered for services um uh including Revenue sharing with cuts to exist programs or with new revenues at the state level so uh those are sort of the three buckets that we're looking at for the legislature to consider um how it's doing business and that's just the operating budget um state's capital budget is in much better shape though not as robust or as quickly growing as it has been in previous years largely because um Debt Service is a fixed percentage of the operating budget and so when the operating budget wobbles uh so does the capital budget a little bit and so um it's not facing a deficit by any stretch of the imagination but funds are tighter than they have historically been for the capital budget I'll let Luke talked about Transportation which is uh which is his expertise and and transportation faces its own unique challenges because the gas tax is a a declining Revenue Source over time both because uh cars are becoming more efficient with their fuel economy and also we have more electric cars than in the past and for both both those reasons the the state is engaged in studies and conversations about what to do in the longer term to replace the gas tax and there's conversations the the the leading Contender is what's referred to as the road usage charge or a vehicle miles travel charge Road

usage charge Ruck as it's as it's called but that as as any tax scheme faces challenges from from those who think they might Faire worse under that scheme uh going forward and also the the fear of the unknown so a lot of challenges for the state frankly just to complete the commitments already made in uh previous Transportation packages let alone take on the uh the remaining Transportation challenges of the future so a a lot of work left to be done as as Nick mentioned this is a long session 105 days as opposed to six 60 which means there'll be a lot more policy bills and banial budgets for the capital budget operating budget and transportation budget and uh a lot of activity that'll that'll that'll go fast so I'm glad we're having this this initial conversation with the uh with the council the week before session begins okay thanks Nick and Luke um I think we've got some questions here CC member lest uh thank you Nick and Luke I'm looking at a document which outlines our legislative agenda and many of them have an admirable specificity for their requests like the library renovation requests I really like that three of them do not have specificity they're three of the most important issues and I'm wondering to you can tell me if you've heard any legislators talking about bills that may drop in these areas one is the idea on access for housing to all again there's no specificity but can you tell me what legislators might be dropping uh the other one has to do to have to do

with food security and affordable child care which are big issues well beyond what the city has done historically again no specificity but I'm wondering if you've heard of bills that might drop in those areas food security Child Care and housing access for all yeah there's a lot of I mean many of those are both in Bill and budgetary form um the governor Insley released his Budget on I think December 17th or 18th which had many things covered as well as uh about 12 uh I think 12.9 billion dollar in new Revenue news to cover uh existing and ongoing programs um part of that was Sate housing first that's one of my expertise areas um uh that Governor Insley had I think something in the neighborhood of 530 million for new funding for the state's Housing Trust Fund in the capital budget as well as somewhere in the neighborhood of I I think about 230 million dollar in the operating budget for things like uh backfilling the uh the shortfalls in funding for homeless Services uh permanent Supportive Housing as well as some other pieces there's a lot of uh legislation that's being discussed um in this area particularly housing Supply legislation some of which would preempt local authority over uh over um uh some zoning decisions as well as uh the rent stabilization legislation that uh Senators Trudeau and representative uh alverado sponsored last year so that's just sort of a a very quick and dirty overview there in terms of um food security I know that Governor Insley proposed

additional funding for food banks that certainly is something that's very acutely uh a concern to many folks uh given the over subscription if you will of and the level of need um that's out there for uh for food needs Governor Ferguson has as one of his uh uh emphases in his uh transition uh looking at Universal School meals which has been something that uh has been out there uh uh as a proposal for a number of years Luca is on Governor Ferguson's governor elect Ferguson's transition team and may be able to speak to uh some of those issues uh child care there is currently um the states Fair start act which um was enacted in 2021 um and many of whose Provisions go into effect in 2025 um the price tag for that is somewhere in the neighborhood of one1 to two billion dollars depending on what you what you lump in with that um there is a lot of conversation about potentially delaying or uh delaying the the implementation of that fair start act um which would increase subsidy and eligibility levels for subsidized Child Care um and some other pieces and related to child care um because I think it covers the whole spectrum of of uh the Continuum of of of uh whole child care if you will is the conversation around special education and Ed and K12 education in general um which looks at how do we cover you know 02 whenever folks are out of the the the publicly uh uh funded systems so lots lots of legislation potential on each of those areas thank youc member Anderson I'll defer first to

well I want to make sure that we walk through the top priorities and make sure that Council has Clarity on how we arrive at um what those items are that we're actively pursuing and I think this is a reflection of what's important to the city but also where opportunity lies and the budget constraints at the upcoming sessions so some of it has been shaped by reality and we lead with um preservation for the mocka cleanup grants that the the cleanup work around the RG Haley site and the subsequent creation of the sales learing Park is dependent on and we try to emphasize in here that this work is shovel ready permits have been issued um we just received our first payment from the PT we have other agencies that are committed and actively paying into this work and we are dependent on our state funding to complete it so we have that at the top of our list and all of that items in the actively perceived category really are um informed by those things that the city alone can do so we acknowledge there's many partners in all of this work but these if if we're not leading on this this work will not happen in our communi so we lead with preservation of the MAA funds for rgy site we also after going through the last year our complete facilities assessment and inventory Citywide um our number one failed asset and need is for our Municipal Court Judge Le in presentations to council has made comments about the inadequacy of those facilities we see that there could be opportunity to relocate

when engineering leaves to Pacific Street P off to um that potential renovation and the reinvestment a historic building um could be an a lwh hanging um possibility to uh reinvigorate the court and do a renovation in a way that is a more trauma informed approach and the conversion of a church to a court we would have the opportunity to really design that building um in a much more intentional way um that could bring in some of the Court partners and also make an investment in our therapeutic and Community Court and dedicate resources to that so that is on the list and then funding active infrastructure needs so we have the Central Library Renovations on there we've um the $2 million Library grants made it through in the government uh the governor's uh proposed budget which is great but we are still short of that complete project total so we're seeking what we can to to close gaps there we have a request for the DIY skate park which would be under the Chestnut Street bridge in there and we also have a World Cup needs so um we are close to having a very public we are moving forward with World path and anticipating um impacts for the local community and so uh we have that noted as well and of course to Michael's point it's nonspecific but we have means across the Spectrum and continue out can say yes to whatever was available um and so we have that broadly emphasized an important need within our community that we all recognize I think the planning committee conversation

reflected because how much interest there is in housing and then last but not least addressing bacon buildings and properties I think Bellingham is interested in leading in this many communities across the state are currently um could benefit from more either legislative or policy tools in this matter and we'd like to be leading and our JC Penny building downtown um we mayor's inbox received communication from dcota Arts I'm not sure if that went to council but there was a great visual representation of what happens when Dakota Arts which is adjacent the JC Penny building sent some pretty compelling images of um what was happening next door and um we're looking for more tools when in our part of our commercial core we have such a a large building that's been unactivated for more than three decades so we think we have have something to share and lead on necessity and so that's in there as well Nick and Luke anything to add to those top priorities no that was a great summary obviously mayor um the only thing that I would uh would add is the way that this um uh agenda was constructed as the mayor alluded to was Luke and I recommended that you think of this as a pyramid what are the what are the you know in terms of leading supporting and uh and other or monitor I can't see the uh the the way the full document so I don't know how you you phrased it but basically and monitor um so basically the stuff as the mayor indicated the stuff is at the top is what are the things that we

have to do that nobody else is going to do if we don't ask for them or do them as a city um what are the projects that need funding what are the priorities that need doing um that only the city of Bellingham uh will be uh exercising leadership on and therefore we need to persuade our legislators and the legislature and Governor as a whole um to take action on actively support being those things that'll be out there whether or not we act on them um but how do we work with the uh ecosystem that's that's advocating on those things to make sure that things are done uh for the best outcome for for the residents of the city of Bellingham and monitor you know uh lots of other things that are out there bills that may rise to um to importance either because of potential for them or because we realize along the way or they come up along the way um that there's something that are going to have an in an impact one way or the other on the city of Bellingham um so that's sort of the way I just wanted to contextualize how we try to C you know uh uh craft this pyramid if you will um of um the stuff that's going to require most of our attention because we're the ones that need to lead on it at the top uh middle tier being still those things that are of importance but we don't need to have the same type of leadership role and then um the rest of those items being the the uh the things that are out there that we need to maintain awareness about uh lest they have an impact one way or the other

on us and I wanted to add some additional context on that that first item up on the on the very top of and the actively pursue the support Bellingham Bay mka cleanup grants and there's there's there's Reason for Hope but work to be done on on that as as you may be aware um the the department of ecology creates a A ranked list of these remedial action Grant programs to try to depoliticize it as much as possible and then it's it's merely a matter of how much funding the legislature provides determines how far down that rank lists projects are are funded at and the the department of ecology in their proposed uh budget to the governor had recommended a funding level which would have funded both of the projects for which the the city is the the lead entity as I understand at the RG Haley site and the South State Street manufactured gas plant now interestingly of the 23 projects that the department of ecology included on their their rank list seven of them are from the Bellingham area including others for which the Port of Bellingham is the lead which I I suppose is good in terms of how much that money is is potentially going to be invested but also reflection of how much work there is to be done to remediate these uh these issues in the local area um so I I mentioned the department of ecology had proposed enough funding to fund those the governor did did not so um those those two projects did not get funded in the governor's proposed budget though the the Cornwall Avenue landfill

which is a Port of Bellingham lead entity project as I understand it was was funded bottom line more work to be done to get the uh those two for which the city is the lead entity funded but but room for Hope because the ecology did fund it so it's it's we're not so far down the list that uh it's implausible we can we can achieve success by the end of the session I can just take on to that at sort of in the last revision of this we actually modified this to focus solely on that RG Haley portion um because that's shov ready that's ready to go we're planning to start construction on that in 2025 whereas South State Street are still a couple years out so we felt like we have another chance to take a bite at the Apple for South State Street but we really wanted to make our highest priority completing the funding package for R um part of what I was going to ask actually that's why I deferred to the mayor for moment because I was hoping we'd go through the list so I'm really happy to hear the address vacant building and properties is on the list um it's not just um JC Penney's building we have multiple uh tracks of property that are blighted and we we lose our our business and occupational tax it depresses the area plus takes City resources for enforcement when issues happen atam so glad we're taking a lead on that I know a lot of communities will benefit from it and even though I know it's holistically looked in here for me one of my uh personally top priorities is the rent

stabilization um that trickles into all of our um homelessness Services I mean we spend quite a bit of money trying to help stabilize community members but as long as um landlords are able to gouge and extract but it's not on here but I'm hoping hoping um someone is working on it and it's the price fixing that's happening I think the Attorney General um we are part of a class action lawsuit um I forget the name of the company but where they pardon Real Page real page thank you I always think of back page and it's wrong um and so that's why I hesitate I've been scolded for the same mistake because they are two very different things it is very different and it's always like about to Jet out because one's yeah been longer about but anyway is there any um legislative work because they're not they're not the only company and it kind of ties into the rent stabilization so I'm kind of even though it's not specifically on our list is it something that there's a ground swell in Olympia that other people are working on I think that's a little up in the air just because of the lawsuit and I think that um and I've actually had this conversation with Governor Le Ferguson's staff about whether that should be pursued I think that that's a little up in the air right now between him and and uh and legislative leaders I know it's an issue of uh of priority but um legislative bodies sometimes don't like to take action on potentially controversial things that they think the courts are going to

settle for them and so some of it may be a matter of uh waiting to see what happens there as opposed to uh something that's that that's um imminent but it but it's something that I know both um Governor Le Ferguson and a number of legislators are interested in seeing fixed so if it looks like there's not going to be legal progress uh my sense is there will uh be some sort of legislative or other public policy proposals around it just to kind of keep the the eyes open as we know it's kind of like a s you close one hole and it's going to come out somewhere else so there's two other companies doing this work that are not part to my knowledge of a lawsuit within Washington and if we close one door on one somebody else is going to come in unless there's a legislative fix whether it's at a state level or national level so um I'm glad there is a lawsuit on the one but um I just don't think that's going to take the problem away just for my two cents okay we're up on time but uh council member handle and then coton yeah I'll I'll contain my my questions um so enter access for housing for all I'm wondering how we um are able to best utilize the the Bellingham Home fund which is a voter approved uh tax that was passed in 2012 I think again in 2017 and then House Bill 1590 which we we call the affordable housing lbby here in terms of not just Capital but also operations that's one question and then the other is more of like a process question the last item under partner legislative

priorities not that we don't have a shared um lobbying uh group how do we how do we support our partners whether it be the county or the tribes when it comes to um issues that end up affecting Bingham residents I'm thinking like the AAL health issues and and homelessness and such sorry I don't know to direct that question mayor uh well I can speak a little bit about what Communications is looking like and um I failed to acknowledge all the work that Deputy Keller did and really leading this she's been leading this from the mayor's office she's been tremendously instrumental um and she is taking point on those government to govern relationships so there are um just like we have kind of the tri funders meeting with the PT and the county as we consider Economic Development we will have ongoing meetings about the legis throughout the legislative session with the fort and the county and we're working separately to make sure that we have collaboration with their tribal neighbors and their priorities as well so um those conversations are and if you'd like to be part of that I would encourage you to reach out to Deputy kellerer I'm sure she'd be happy to keep you informed and then we will be working closely with Nick and Luke throughout the entire session as well so if we see movement or momentum or feel like County's top priorities and Jeopardy we need to advocate I'm sure they'll be keeping a surprise make sure we're stepping in three quick questions um uh how will Council be

updated on which bills were providing testimony for just updates about uh what the work you're doing for us Nick and Luke um and uh what will be the ways that um uh council members can participate in in those efforts and and and and what what opportunities will you be able to direct us to and then finally maybe this is a question more for the administration but what's going to be the process for selecting bills um within some of the broader buckets um yeah or any of those directions would be would be fascinating so on a week toe basis we prepare uh we try to give a heads up on what uh bills are going to receive public hearings the next week which will be ripe for uh uh testimony both uh good bills and bad bills and we usually present that on Thursday night uh Wednesdays and Thursdays are when committee chairs usually determine what bills are going to be heard the next week so we usually have a good idea by Thursday afternoon and Thursday night we uh we will send to you a a list of the public hearings on bills that we think are of most interest to the the to the city and uh then we'll we have a a follow-up conversation on Friday I believe it is with city city staff to answer questions and provide further information about any of those additional items additional context about things that are simmering below the surface so that's that's the the main way that we help to provide a heads up about what is what is coming to the the city and about opportunities for engagement and and

that Friday standing meeting we have the three council members uh are part of that meeting so that will be the primary means of engaging the coun it needs to involve counil and so if we have a bill sent okay um for instance if we want to provide a comment on the lot splitting bill will just what will be the practice just to go to that committee or will we try and luk been Council and old and new or I I guess how for specific because I know we need to move nimbley um I just curious what what we're thinking I would I would suggest um reaching out to to Deputy administor Keller when you have those items not to volunteer her when she's not here but she's the lead on this and I think she'd be a great point of contact and then she can coordinate with um our lobbying team and the rest of after I'm just gonna chime in too that I'm I'm attending both meetings as well and we're we're fine tuning but we will be um sharing all that information with you guys that's so one of the difficulties with the city council is where we're a creature who stands on our hind legs only every two weeks and so while the city can sign in in of a bill it's been difficult for the city council to be nimble enough so I have in the past signed in on in behalf of the city council but only because the time worked out well that the council could give me that authority to sign in so um I think as individual council members we can be free to do it but for the city to weigh in I I think the council's unfortunately

the wrong tool the wrong timing cycle we're going to have to work through Janis or the rest of the administration to weigh in on bills as they go through committee okay uh I'll just add a concluding comment I guess um I I've been sitting in on the conversations with the lobbyists and staff um and I just have to say I think it was a great move to um separate from the accounting and the court I think this has been a really tough process I mean the list was huge when we started when we were brainstorming priorities and I mean if you don't see it on this piece of paper it was probably on that list um but uh but the work that staff and Janice in particular did to whittle that down and organize it and fit everything onto one page front and back um is pretty commendable it was a huge amount of work so a lot of work this year we're going to do a lot of learning about how how we do this ourselves um uh with with direct contact with their own lobbyists but I think it's going to be well worth it and it's going to be a lot more effective and intentional than it has been in the past so um I look forward to to what this what this looks like over the next year okay anything further all right with that thanks Nick and Luke I appreciate you sitting in and and um I hope to see you again soon thanks so much pleasure to work with you and look forward to uh engaging throughout the session with you all right okay moving on to our next agenda item uh agenda 4384 which is discussion of public

comment sessions um and we have a half an hour reserved for this uh during the November 25th 2024 Council Retreat council members discuss potential changes to public comments which are typically held at the end of the regular Council meetings and public hearings which are held periodically and specific topics requested that staff research what format and other communities have utilized for their public sessions and hearings in order to better evaluate what changes if any should be implemented for the Bellingham city council Council has been provided with the requested information and we continue the discussion at this meeting and I am that um this apparently but uh I I will go ahead and open it up first ask a question are we prepared to resume public comment at our next meeting yes okay any comments about where we're do for changing that's wel when I started on the city council public comment worked and in many ways it has stopped working and the city council has tried to adjust the procedures over and over again but what made it stop working is not something the city council did the nature of the comments have changed the comments um at one point uh during covid turned nasty and hateful and inappropriate and profane um at other times they've we've simply been abused as a soap box for someone to make and score political points on other topics or political point score political points against us um they weren't constructive comments to the council so the fundamental problem is

really in what people are wanting to say to us not in US wanting to hear them which is why for a while I thought that maybe we should find a way to uh liit limit people's live inperson comments to things which are live and in person at that meeting and make it very clear that city council is always open to any kind of input on any topic off topic new irrelevant Whatever by other means and other occasions write us email call us up ask us to sit down over coffee whatever you want to do meet us in the grocery store when we're trying pick out the right milk but for the live inperson experience of public comment it seems to me it the goal would be to have people comment on a way that's also live and in person and relevant to that meeting that would be the most useful form of feedback the most timely use and that would need to occur at the beginning of the meeting the way it once was back in the day that's my ideal that's my deal um I do like the format of taking a break and that um we use an alternative recording versus risking our YouTube ability based on content that people sh um we went through a lot of concern and I I know some people in the community don't like that because I think a lot of times they're not necessarily speaking to us they want the larger bt10 audience um we've seen that with people who will stand in front with their back to counsel addressing the cameras um and so now we make them at a Podium and um I I struggle with this because for 20 years I got up in

front of council and spoke to something about the community or my neighborhood or letting them know there was a concern and that to me was always public comment and I wrote tons of letters and you know over the years and it has changed um it doesn't necessarily mean that um all change is bad I mean there's there's been some good changes that have happened over the last five years too I've I've um learned a lot from some of our um young uh speakers but I struggle with this if we go to the beginning um I I think we have to limit the time and we have to limit how many people and then how do you do that to make sure that it's fair and Equitable because you know for somebody who's getting off work they you know I I don't want it to be like on a when there's a lot of heat in the community I don't want it to be like a open Arena seating at a concert that the most able-bodied person who could run up the stairs is the one that gets one of so many seats so if we are to go at the beginning and again if we go at the beginning we have to limit the general comment because we want to make sure we can do the business of councel and not be there for three hours um and then move on to the business because I'm willing to do there till one in the morning but I don't want to force staff to do that um if we do that process I do think that kind of I think it's I forget which Community as an example in here but they open up the sign up online for so many seats you know the Friday before um so that

makes it a little bit more Equitable so it's not open Marina rush to write it down on a notepad um I just want to make sure whatever process we go through that access is Equitable to those who may not be as able-bodied or you know are our working community members who can't be there standing in line at 6 o'clock to get in the mid of first that's yeah it it seems like the issue why we suspended it was more of a safety issue is that correct there potential so has that issue been addressed for the for the public uh comment section okay I think we've made steps um based on recommendations um to create a more secure building but there is more work to be done um some of what we're prepared to do is a little bit of restructuring of the layout of the room for at the next council meeting but the primary the primary change is that we're uh have a contract to have the same corporation that provides security at Municipal Court be present to do um yeah Security checks and we we have on order some metal detectors that they recommended whether they're going to be here or not for the 13th I have not heard confirmation for that but they would be here for the second meeting in January um but they would there's been ongoing conversations about what is the purpose of this what does the process look like um what is this company's approach I can say they came very highly recommended from Judge Leb who has been through multiple companies providing this service at the court and um this is by far in

way her Top Choice and they have a real focus on that experience as a member of the community going through that process so they're very customer service focused um and and we've had conversations about what are they screening for and what does that look like when there's exceptions so all of that has been conversations that we've been having and while we' had this pause we've also done some work to create some more signage and wave finding part of what we want to do at City Hall is increase language access and make this feel like a more welcoming space to the community that work will also be ongoing but we have taken some initial steps and we have conversations with the union leaders as we go into this work and uh it relates to our security positions that we're going to invest in 2025 budgets and anything you want to add no comes up so I'm I'm kind of um what what what I think about is that we have a public comment process it's what is it three minutes it's at the end of the meeting and and we change uh the video thing um and up until the last few incidents that have happened about about the safety issue um I I wasn't aware that there was any other problems with our our process other than ones that I well ones that I have observed are that well it's the main one is it whatever process we have we have to be we have to administer it consistently um if we make exceptions or violate whatever rules there I mean we don't violate them but if we don't enforce them then that's just

going to breed more potential violations of the process as opposed to um anything else so I I guess what I'm trying to get at is even though the the content or as as Michael has said the comment period from the participants level has changed is there any other problem with the structure that we use yeah oh okay because you tell tell us what they are sure we vote then we listen that's backwards we should listen then vote um but what about the public process for those votes we do get feedback chronically that some people come to be heard and we vote and then they're heard we know that they could have contacted us three days ago or two weeks ago or they could have emailed us on Thursday but their experience and they're are bosses their experience is we vote and then we listen can that be if you move to the beginning then you solve the problem one way but you create another one I'm gonna go ahead and move the CC than you um appreciate the dialogue back and forth and thank you for recognition um I understand your Viewpoint and maybe it needs to be in the packet or maybe it needs to be part of the education that you know Council will be taking votes on this and that the um usually if we're taking a vote on something we've had a public hearing or if it's something that is done during the daytime it is noticed and so if our communication is you know content has been not you know has been noticed two weeks ago we've been taking public comment then it sets the stage that if someone's

coming in and they expect whatever comment about an issue we're taking our final vote on they're going to speak at the end of the night then they're going to realize that there was opportunity because there has been I I can't think of and I'd love for somebody to give an example that we have taken a final vote where we didn't have a period of time where comments could be made I can't think of anything we've taken a vote on that we haven't received calls and emails or people have been able to speak publicly to us regarding that and I don't want to change something because of that last minute dialogue I think if we set the expectation and educate people of their opportunity it's fine for them to come forward and speak to something like I'm disappointed in this vote but um it's hard to change that process because I think when we get to that point of making a vote we've already read hundreds of emails we've had those conversations we've had the public hearings um I haven't been compelled to completely change my vote after it was done because of something I heard because it's not the first time I've heard something and yeah I know I'll probably get a hate mail from someone in the public but I mean there's opportunity and and it's it's unfortunate that people feel like they weren't heard but there has been opportunity for that so um I think the system is working pretty well as far as you know at the the end of the meeting is the General open comment because and I like the idea that

we take comment on whatever the public wants to speak about if somebody wants to talk about bears and crossing the highway then that's their opportunity to talk about that um if we're going to have just open comment but um anyway I I think it's a matter of educating making sure that um we communicate out front what votes are being being taken and that way when people decide to speak after a vote they're not too upset if that makes sense and I was going to say something else but I ended up going down this line still yeah I think in response to the discussion I'm just thinking about a couple things I mean one I recognize what council RIS is saying that I mean people's perception is their sort of reality and so that in some way needs to be addressed at the same time I think it reflects more on our engagement process as a council I mean individually and collectively in right ensuring that maybe if everyone felt like every email they ever sent to us was responded to and was heard you know would that help with the perception Beyond just you know wanting to come to public comment live public comment because I think being there to present live public comment um is definitely different than right sending an email and it's much more public and um I'm not in favor at all of limiting or restricting the content of comment it's just I don't know to me would feel arbitrary and counterintuitive to S of the whole First Amendment right to free speech and wanting to yeah hear what people are

thinking and and where they're at um but I also just want to highlight that the third and final vote I was reflecting on the public hearing right that will be coming forward in respect to the parking reform I do think there's something to be said about the Third final vote not feeling too much like a rubber stamp it's like oh we already voted at the last meeting it's going to stay the same um and so whether it's the public hearing or public comment that you heard at the end of right the last meeting when we had first and second if there was something that we could do when we are calling forward right for third and final sort of that pause for you know further discussion or if there things that council members want to say that reflect upon comment that we've heard or I mean but something that that that conveys right that this isn't just a rubber s when we voted first and second like why do we have the third and final if if it's not relevant I mean I think it is relevant it's the time for pause to reflect on the discussions that we've heard and the feedback we've received um and so therefore then if we did receive comment at the end of the meeting when we' had first and second I mean at that point in time members of the public are also responding to maybe what they've heard us say and if they have a difference of opinion are able to share that and then we can reflect and respond to that at the next meeting um but I do hesitate as council member Williams to saying to completely

change what we've been doing without sort of a reason to do so that feels like it's going to make some substi change and I think the subsi change that we will accomplish will be beyond that public comment period whatever it looks like just I think I want to call the question on this discussion because it obviously I think there's some shared discontent about our current Arrangement but it doesn't feel like there is consensus on a preferred alternative and so um I think it's been edifying to have this conversation a few times with you all but um I mean I I don't think if anyone was to make a motion right now it would even get a second so um I I think maybe we should I'm in favor of having public comment in some form and so I I guess I would encourage folks if they feel like they want to make a motion to do so or if not let's move forward with this system we have for now agreed and I'll add before get some on um I think it's I think it is a good idea to revisit this as we do every year just because the nature of the influences on public comment change every year um it's never been the same uh the five years I've so we've had all kinds of different factors that have come into play and so revisioning this I think is worth it um but and I want to acknowledge that um I wrote A really lovely white paper um doing some research on the different forms of public comment in Washington state and there are a lot of different ways to do it uh all of them have their faults and so you know I

think what we have found is one that seems to have the least amount of faults right now which could change next year with different influences but um so yeah I I agreed probably just move on um agreement can I just say one thing one thing you raised is like people perceive that that that they're commenting after the vote on important things most important things are ordinances and we could make it really clear yeah you are commenting after first and second but there will be a third and final and any council member can say oh I heard something after the after we already voted that having a work session before we do third and final I mean and we could make that really clear while we voted on a first and second we're we're we're going to hear the comment assuming there wasn't already a public hearing and we'll take that into consideration when we do third and final I mean I don't know that that's clear people think oh they voted it's all over well it's not all over and there have been ordinances that we've done first and seconds on and never done a third and final because because of the public comment and just isn't there a public comment period before to vote on third third and fin no no okay but I I do I guess you've said it much better than what I was getting at is that when we do the first and second that evening we do get a lot of public comment and then we do get emails and the parking minum is a good example of that you know over the weekend we got several more emails for

and against so that information is still coming forward and that gives the ability before third and second for a council member to speak to it like I'm supporting it because of this or I'm not supporting it for that and then Council has that ability just because they supported something the first time in first and second they have the ability to change during third and final and I've seen that in action so people do hear they do consider and they have changed their vote um so I think that's important for the public to understand and again it's that education aspect of letting people know that after the first and second that's really the time period so when people are there to speak because it is on our agenda they see it coming forward and they may not always see it I understand that but um I'm just thinking of our what's coming coming up for third and final next week I know we're still getting those comments and I imagine we'll get them up until the moment we vote for it and then we'll hear people afterwards too this keep in mind there's a significant asymmetry between a measure which passes and a measure which fails measures which pass first and second reading can be Revisited in third right there's a chance for someone who voted yes just to go no but when it matters is defeated in first and second it never comes up the third there is not an opportunity for someone to change their vote from no to yes can't it be sorry I'm picking Liberty can't it be reintroduced as long as

it's the next meeting no because consing vote can only be done by the prevailing side not by the no side so the people who have the right to bring the matter up are not the ones who would switch and pause Passage but if I said no on a vote then I have the ability prevailing party do so there's an asymmetry there so you're right it's a good point that both of you has made that the third and final is an opportunity that maybe we should highlight to the public as well as to ourselves but there is an asymmetry it doesn't it isn't like we always get two bites at the Apple so I just had a comment um related to the security measures that have been put in place because it was related I guess to public comment and why public comment was initially suspended um and I believe that what we had reviewed I don't think it was Nor during a meeting but was identifying the group that was going to be providing the security and the screening um and I believe their name was like Homeland Securities LLC or something to that effect which I understand is I mean some may say unfortunate but I'd rather be forthcoming with that information and pretty clear when we're talking about hoping that security measures make people feel safer coming to City Hall and providing comment um if there's anything that can be done with the publicity of that change in process to highlight that this is not related to you know any federal enforcement um or requirement for presentation of ID or I don't know I think about

members of the homeless Community as well who don't have ID and may come to speak um but that's been a lingering concern that I just think it'd be better someone will find that information and then you know draw attention to it and spin it maybe in a way and so also the feedback from Judge and the experience that the courts had with this specific provider I think could be helpful but I just wanted to share that know they been shared okay we ready to move on I just want to say that um in terms of a welcoming and secure City Hall there will likely be changes that continue to unfold throughout the year so we'll start on January 13 with one set of procedures and um changes and to improve so it'll be working process okay um to find a final but related agenda Bill items we do have an hour reserved for them um that would put us at about 4:15 which is a little later than we expected um but we'll see how this goes so we've got agenda Bill 24253 the work session regarding landlord tenant relations and un fees and residential rent agreements and we is uh the council called the work session on October 21st 2024 to discuss a draft ordinance that residential landlords from chargeing tenants unfair or excessive fees commonly referred to as junk fees Council moves to adopt the revise ordinance as the draft ordinance to share the public engagement and the administration's fur the review staff reviewed the ordinance and made suggested edits in legislative format for ease of review staff also

drafted an alternative ordinance that would accomplish the same goal but that would be easier to understand attendant property management companies and review courts in consecutive work session declaring the December 9th and 16th 2024 Council meetings Council approved a motion to M with the new staff ordinance with amendments the latest draft of the ordinance which reflects changes agreed upon by Council during the December work sessions is present consideration okay um we yes that ask me we we wanted to kind move this forward uh this meeting to have further discussion because there's CLE a lot of interest doing a deeper into this um cat well thank you Alan for all your work on this and um I guess the question I post to the full council is um uh are we ready to move forward with the public engion process there are a whole bunch of notes and points of conversation but I think I haven't done the best job looping in stakeholders that I talked a lot with at the beginning or in the middle but not so much recently and so really wanting to give time for them to give their feedback and help inform those discussions and so rather than diving in again for line edits and more back and forth with staff do we feel good about moving forward with a public engagement process with this version okay I I have a a couple things on like to say is um uh and and comments relate about this item and the one on the manufacturer to Parks ordinance but um I did try to capture your changes I made uh I'm

certain I didn't capture them all because there was a lot of feedback um and so that's one so it would be appropriate today to say there are a couple things that I really want to get in there um I know that I've added the enforcement section and I know that there's a memo from from Blake in there about how we would fund that enforcement um so I I think Blake needs to talk a little bit about that um also I wanted to talk we are we are ready once Council says these are the versions that we should take for the drafts recognize them they're going to change but the uh reaching out and having a process with the stakeholders uh David is here to talk about that that process has been planned and is set up to go I don't know whether Council wants to hear about what that will entail um so I'm hoping people had a chance to look at this and say oh you you missed this or you missed that I know that there's some things council member coton that you you probably have a motion I would say if we're going to make changes today that there' be a formal motion um I know that also Community Development Samuel Lutz had a few non-substantive changes to some of the definitions regarding rapid Housing Programs uh and some things there that I would just say I'll put those in there for taking it forward through the stakeholder process uh if you wanted to know those specifics I could tell you but she reviewed and said hey because we have some things in there about late payments and and and security

deposits and then the last thing and I'll jump to the manufactured home there were I miss I Mis capturing one of your it was I I was Rel listening to the the first work session in December and I missed one of your motions on the manufactured home ordinance I need to add language capturing the last motion that Council made that would uh reduce the late fee cap to 1% refund screening fees if denied if the person is denied rental of the space in the in the park and then some a Prohibition on this is from the motion guest fees long-term guest parking fees greater than what it costs the landlord fees for comment to use or access common areas parking fees for parking on your own lot and pet deposits and fees so I missed that motion I would include those changes the manufactured home for coordinates but other than that I let's go at it okay and and I do Blake does want to talk about how we'd pay for enforcement and David should give you I think there's been a lot of effort that's gone into uh how we're going to engage with the stakeholders and he could give it AEF review of that go first I'm happy to start um we talked a little bit at your last meeting um and you all may recall that when we were making the changes uh a little over a year ago we took the the rental registration and safety inspection program and it has kind of two predominant components that are in that uh B structure one is for the registration of the units which applies to all units being offered for rental and then

um so that would be applicable across the board and then there are those that um when they become subject to inspection and state law and local ordinance requires that occur no more than once every three years we have a separate kind of fee structure inside that so to fund any additional Staffing positions uh we went in the previous ordinance we went from um what was if you have one to 20 units that was a it was a $10 fee and then it moved up to $20 and if you had more than 20 units on a particular property that was $8 and it went to 16 so what we're proposing if you decide you want to go with a more direct enforcement via staff is to off each one of those by effectively $10 so it would go to $30 and $26 that would give us approximately $200,000 in additional Revenue which would be enough to cover that additional staff person fully loaded position again salary benefits uh you know departmental operational needs type and stuff like that uh so that's what we're we're suggesting um just by way of reminding you that typically when we do the charges for um these we let people know that they are paying for the following year so if you were to move this forward or we could even go through the public uh you know input process and then these charges would come effective by they'd have to pay prior to January 1 of 2026 in order to be able to U have that effective and not occurring lately so that's kind of the timing of what would be we have roughly 21,000 units in uh in the system

right now um that would likely increase there's potential for some units to come off but with new construction we that continue so if we you know of course the public process and if we decided based on the outcome of that we were going to be more direct enforcement because I think as it's written it's it's one of kind of at the discretion um previous conversations were really looking at the most egregious and hoping by pursuing that um most people will it's kind of like some of the fines for the health and safety the idea is the city's here do business and so partner with us and do the right thing it's not an issue so it's you know the hope is there's less um non-compliance um when it's not the cost of doing business so would this one position be needed for that level of um maybe a few um Pursuits for infractions um or is there the bandwidth to be able to um you know because I I keep thinking it's not just the enforcement it's also legal who would be involved and so the position funding is in your area but I'm also kind of wondering impact on legals bandwidth if we pursued something so I guess a little more of how you envision this Dev tailing in to be able to be a resource sure and and you're absolutely right in that the proposed would be um planning staff not legal so that distinction should be should be well understood um if we were to go out and do the public comment and the ordinance as were to pass um we would have S I'm going for sake of conversation I'm going to

assume that would happen in the next several months for sake of conversation so we would have an effective ordinance let's say middle of if we were to pursue this those fees wouldn't come until January of 26 the earliest in terms of that funding availability so we could we could work with the existing staff on some of those efforts uh for the balance of this calendar year and then if we don't feel like that's substantial enough we could go through the Recruitment and selection process and fill that staff member you know uh in and pursue those the nice thing about this in some respects is that many of the many of the property management pieces they're they're managing multiple properties so even though we have 21,000 rental units they're managed by let's say a dozen or two property management companies and individual landlords so presumably those that are more in that kind of corporate space space of management if you're enforcing it you get the benefit of enforcing them but they've got a th000 units in their portfolio over something like that so presumably you AR having to make that same case a thousand times over so there's some efficiencies that you can to get there okay a second just a kind of followup so um when would we have to make the decision about raising this fee then because it sounds like if the ordinance I mean what version of the ordinance that goes through they'll be time for implementation and Gathering to see what type of action City might have to back up and

pursue um and then that should give us I'm assuming an idea how much bandwidth we're going to have to create and so I was assumed passing the um additional fee won't happen until we know that we're going to need it because I would my thought is if we pass this in June to raise the fee and then we find out we don't need that position they're you can certainly do them as two separate items I think is um if we're taking that alternative approach where you're not doing it at the same time then I would suggest or I would recommend that we look at something around the October time frame because that typically when we start to from a staff perspective we're sending out notices like hey your payments are coming due by the end of this calendar year and we're trying to give people roughly about that three-month window to pay their their upcoming uh rental registration fees so we want to know enough ahead of time to give them the opportunity to adjust to that different fee structure and to to pay so that they're not incurring those late charges um Al correct me that wrong haven't you added to your Civil Division to increase enforcement that was really Visa V the paral inspection program I mean you you have a little more capacity there hopefully in this coming year we will have more capacity we haven't hired for that capacity but we're also taking over some of the community court and also we're going to be permitting our contracts for that we have with outside Council for handling mental

health court the infractions calendar and that's the firm that does our limited enforcement on conditions issues and so we would bring that in house so I think we'll have a little bit of capacity but it's not like we could have one of our prosecutors doing substantial work on enforcement no but I think if there's an agreeded example we could make I hope we have the resources for the case we would I just wanted to point out that this this represents an entirely new body of work for City staff and we are as you all know City staff are already doing doing a lot of things and most folks are quite busy and so what we're trying to do is make it clear that this enforcement is going to represent a new body of work and with that we need resources to provide that body of work and when we do that without providing resources other things have to fall off and so that decision has to be made at some point so we would just want to be really clear with this that we think that this requires additional Staffing to do this correctly because it's going to be really hard for Blake to have somebody come and complain and say I I'm being subject to these unfair fees and they say well I've does anybody else have those same unfair fees that you're getting from your landlord before I pursue this um so I think that's a it's a challenging thing to not resource a new program with this I believe the last time that we discussed this and we put this in we we we voted to put this in one of points I made was I

do not want to pass something that that is not in force that's a big issue um and I believe that we have a history of that in other areas where we say oh yeah this looks really good we're passing this thing because it's a major issue but we're not putting any resources in to enforce it and I've seen it I I mean I've seen some history where that has happened in the past where we we passed something and the administration says well we don't have the fund so we're not going to fund it and this is we're going to P or we're going to deal with this issue and the administration is saying this is what it's going to take to in enforce it and if we don't do that then it's going to be kind of yeah somebody gets enforced some body doesn't it'll be a peac meal thing as opposed to if this issue is as important as we think it is we need to put the resources behind it to make it work that's the way that I see it and that's what this is seems to be addressing and and quite frankly that was part of why we wanted to have this memo before we do the public engagement so that this can be part of what that looks like so we don't run into that situation so whether you choose to move forward with it or not is certainly your perview to do at a later point in time but having the the context and the understanding of what it is go out to do the public uh Outreach pieces is going just to be clear that we we had taken out the administrative enforcement there is still tenant has rights to enforce that's

their I think what we're talking about is administrating and just to um clarify I was hoping we're going to have a little bit of time to gather data because I doubt this will happen but let's say for six months we don't get one single complaint but we're charging the landlords more money to create a position that may not necessarily be needed so I kind of want to know do we have a period of time where that information would be coming to life two months would probably not be enough i' I've never known a city to drop a fee because something wasn't needed um I imagine that this will do dro the Fe okay okay thanks thanks for sharing and and clarifying that I I do imagine this position would be needed for a lot of the administrative work that would be coming into to that team um I just want to make sure one the level of the position because there's a difference between administrative support personnel and an actual compliance officer when it comes to cost so um and I imagine given that when fees are collected we'll have time to determine exactly what type of position that's going to be needed again I I doubt there will be zero complaints but this is new and I I'm always hesitant asking people to pay fees for something that I want to be able to justify and quantify how that is needed to them yeah and um I I think it would also be great to maybe have this conversation in terms of the spectrum the implementation and enforcement activities you're talking about I'm always surprised

talking to landlords and tenants about a lack of knowledge about even state laws let alone our local tenant protections right and so I think that that might be one place but I think I'm really interested the concert in this conversation have a broader conversation about enforcement philosophy and and and system because I think um uh I think that that conversation might be overdue and also um would make me feel a lot more comfortable um that we we're setting ourselves up for success and not just doubling down on processes that we have in place easy to invest more in but to I know maybe step back and um yeah and evaluate practices in other cities and um other thing I just want to say here is I I heard the request multiple times and I think it's one that I support for some language to say like there will be an opportunity to to cure a violation before we proceed um I think that would be our practice anyway but I think that would be one thing that would add some um yeah some sense of good faith from our our housing provider um community members who um sometimes feel nervous seeing City enforcement language so you would you prefer motion for that Al well I would say that's our that is by far I BL speak to that we give multiple opportunities to cure we do not want to go down this path if you want something put into the code then I would ask for that motion but we we do that as routine this is the like if we end up actually issuing an infraction it's because multiple attempts to

opportunity cure of com and on and there was a recital to that fact and I'm happy if it if it's the will of the council and I can confer with the administration as well if if we want to have a work session on Code Enforcement and ways to ways we're doing it the way we're you know the options out there in terms of how to pursue that that's something we can determine in whether that's but I think you want reassuring language in the word yeah sorry I made two points but yes I think so I'd like a motion that going forward just everything is a motion I'll just incorporate put it into the I'll move the add language to um uh the the enforcement sections um providing that we will the city will provide an opportunity for landlords to cure a violation before before motion byerson for the discussion say I hi any of those thank you further discuss I want David to be able to talk about the okay um so we have two promps to this um the first is going to be uh focus groups that welcome dispute resolution center is going to facilitate at the end of January and the other one is a CommunityWide survey um that we'll administer and we hope to get to um many of these questions about the nigr of these these ordinances and uh fees and how what the impact of ordan would be widespread and how de the these things are with these focus groups could you um expand upon uh the the targeted groups that will be invited and whether not these will be open and recorded for the public or if you want City

councilors to attend or not how would that best serve yes so this these are going to be uh we're going to invite F from 25 people per focus group uh it will be facilitated by welcome Street center staff uh so there won't be any City staff members or city council members there at the end of the session uh the work product from speed resue trans center will be summaries of these focus groups uh elicited themes feedback um but there be three groups uh the first is going to be larger landlords and property management companies and uh larger nonprofit housing providers the second will be smaller landlords and property managers and the third will be tenants and community service organizations question I'll note the inequality that Lor to readings but I think that's good and we'll we'll benefit from that um I would just um say I I would really appreciate being in these meetings and I would I think I would appreciate staff the opportunity to be in these meetings simply because I think a lot of it is Technical and some of the I think most um heated uh comments can often be rooted in misunderstanding and so I think just St just provide technical support I wouldn't be interested in participating and put the you feel though my only concern is that with staff being there it changes how freely people can speak on the issue and so I would just want to make sure to to your point that we don't um somehow come across as being intimidating or otherwise you know you know let people speak freely

and do that kind of stuff so yeah I I um as this process has been uh developing I've chatted with uh David about that and when you have a focus group the person leading it has to be perceived as a as a neutral party for that very same reason so that people feel free to to speak their mind and so on and I I'm I've got a mixed bag about should any of us show up or not for that very same reason it's like what would be the perceived impact of us attending from the participants not from our end but how would they perceive that we I talked with u Emily at wam Street resolution center in in dep at office um and I relied on her expertise and they are they know what they're doing they do this a lot um and her feeling that having City staff members or council members there would change the discussion a lot um during our communication to the members of these focus groups we would make sure that they they've read these ordinances they've asked any questions they're prepared they have the questions and so they can come and um have that that that dialogue and that interaction um without any performative uh or any sort of any other Factory that sway their opinions or feedback I think I just I'm very uncomfortable with I feel like seing our Ro as Council as facilitators and um well I I hope uh Emily feels comfortable with all the technical elements of this um yeah I think it's valuable for Council to be in that so that would be my strong preference in general I you know I I think policym inv

having to be in the room with people who have a different perspective than you and even if they're in the mindset of listening I certainly have not found that um landlords or tents are afraid to share how they feel with me and um yeah and my feelings are quite known about this graft so um so yeah that's my two sents question um I I think I'm persuaded by the disp r Center's judgment that that it's better without us in the room I know when I go places too often they're trying to talk to me not to each other to facilitate or get comments so I I think we're a disruptive influence but I think you're very much on a valid point when you say that a lot of the argument or feedback could be based on misunderstanding that it's if I was just in the room could just told them no actually that's not it we did it the other way right so I do think there needs to be expertise in the room which means I would want Emily whoever it is to become somewhat of an expert so that they can fact check as it goes along actually that's not the case or actually that's not the case I don't know if they're going to be prepared to also be a little bit expert on the subject matter not just as a neutral facilitator and air traffic controller for conversation do they feel that part of their role is also to um to to not only provide people with information ahead of time but to come back check them as they go so they don't just argue about the wrong point I would say they're well-versed on the ordinances uh and

I've been in dialogue with them um they have uh a good understanding of the issue and I started this conversation with them you know more than a month ago um so they aren't M to it um also when there are instances of misunderstandings that could be a good indication have to do more Outreach and communication about that to uh to address that if they aren't the only people who have those questions or misunderstanding so there is value in that so would it be appropriate for like council member C to actually talk to this facilitator you and you could explain what what are the issues from this is your you a lot of work into this what are the issues that you're concerned about so that she hears [Music] that um well along that line I mean I'm thinking that the spe resolution center though is then preparing a report that comes to us right so I think about that having outside of the public you know real public meeting but then this is a draft that they have reviewed that's then coming before Council for further review and possible adoption and so I would think even if there was a misunderstanding you feel like oh you know they're upset about something that's not right when that comes back to us that's an opportunity publicly in the meeting to address the concern and then to also address how right that's rectified or remedied or how that concern you know yeah is addressed within the legislation and so I don't necessarily see that as you know a a negative I mean it could be a positive

because then you're going to have hopefully more um public discussion and you know education about that when it comes to um completely understand the um ten to ownership and concern because this is your Tri coming forward but I also worry that uh people who are against it they're going to spend their time speaking to you and telling you that you don't understand this and you know I think of the emails we've been getting and I would hate to spend two hours paying for a facilitator to basically get that in a verbal um delivery um whereas what we really need to know is and a good facilitator will be able to pull this out if you are able to say what we really need to know is what are their actual costs why are they opposed to this and if if the facilitator knows the direction of things that Al GR be useful they'll be able to extract that out and I think the work session will be a little bit more beneficial and then we're going to have work sessions so we're going to have that opportunity to be in a room and hear because they're not going to just go to a work session and go away they're going to come to those public hearings and and speak to all of councel um and I do want to make sure that because I think sometimes people want to become performative when council is there or they become come reserved they they don't want to say what they feel like they need to say that they think it's a little bit more confidential there going to be more of Liberty and I I think of a meeting we've

all recently attended with the county with um some of our of uh developers and because they wanted the union people out of the room because they felt like they couldn't speak freely um so I just want to make sure that we get the best information possible that is a little bit unfiltered but not necessarily targeted to an individual because I think there's some angs from some groups and I think they could probably become a dominant voice in that room and we're not going to hear from the other people and that would be my concern that it might become more performative fin note um I absolutely hear your concerns I mean I think we see uh just let's take a comment section from Bellingham Herold online um you can see how kind of excruciating that misinformation that Arion misinformation or lack of information uh can be and just be able to jump in and and and BR that and see how an opinion might change um is is one way to do things um I I I also think that this is just one of the tools that we have for Gathering um opinions about this draft ordinance and I think it's one that is a little it's pretty different to be able to have a situation where none of us are influencing um the conversation that's happening and uh and that's just again just one pocket of how we can obtain information I think it's a really interesting and cool one that we don't get a lot um and we've got loads of other ways we can also have dialogue with people as well so um I really appreciate that the this speak Sol

to work on that with us any further conversation about this topic oh yeah um I think in conversations that David and I other had about this that the survey and focus groups are we've talked about the goal for those being to really hear directly and in more depth and in more detail from people about their experiences with these Spees not necessarily to offer feedback on the ordinance and the merits of the ordinance but to give you more raw material to work from as we're making a decision and I think that changes the way that we need to show up to that conversation none of us here are experts in what others others experience has been and I think that's really going to be the main um the main topic of those groups not on this topic but I was just gonna maybe I don't know move this along um I I think the draft ordinance I know that we will be making changes once we have the feedback there might be some slight words smithing that we even do before but it doesn't necessarily for me change the content it might be just a little bit of the the delivery so I'm comfortable with this going forward to the work sessions as written does that need to be a motion direction to staff direction to staff as modified for the the comments from Sam and and adding that last motion from the first meeting on the manufactured homs I would make those and the one just made correct and the one made today okay so does it DVD a motion I oh go ahead I can do that we're close Okay so I I move that um as

Modified by Samia along with the comments made from legal for the additions that were admitted um that this draft um goes forward to the work sessions as planned by staff to the conflict resolution second and you mean the public engagement public engagement yes Anderson second first the discussion um okay I might have a couple quick amendments that's um um uh so the first I think is just for clarity um we use the term total monthly payment and monthly event and just for our caps um in 0302 and 030 page 916 um p91 and we use total monthly payment which we Define as including mandatory or optional fees and I think you really because that will fluctuate you you got a one off mandatory fee or an optional fee um that we want to just I think sub monthly rent which is still in our definition the underline number two page 91 BMC 6.6.3 is that yes okay yeah um page 91 and Page 92 and sub um all of the total monthly payments in that section for monthly are are you just recommending that the terminology terminology change it's and it will be a constant number for the 10 monthly exchange permit or take out payment and insert rent monthly rent take total monthly payment and insert monthly rent I see it in three locations I see it in 0302 0303 and 030 six and instead you think it's more appropriate to say monthly rent in all three locations okay I'll second it okay well maybe I'll do my okay maybe we should do that one my other one the table any for the discussion motion for an amendment

the table then all in favor signif I by saying iOS okay passes okay and I'm going to try and solell this as maybe it would just be nice to get this out there so we get feedback on it um but um as we talked about last meeting I have some um concerns about the kind of predatory optional fees that this the current draft um might let slip through and so um and this is I'm thinking out on how we might also address um the previous motion on the manufactured home problematic optional fees of the parking on your own lot guest fees just to add in section um uh 04 z um to make that first go at point1 and then uh to add uh a second subsection in addition the following fees shall be considered unfair and excessive and are prohibited and to add um any fee not included in the advertising relase agreement uh any be for the Light payment or non payment of any portion of the rent which a service providers responsible for payment any fee for the issuance of a notice to a tenant any fee to rent month to month rather than a fixed term lease or vice versa regardless of whether that's designated as additional rent um and what what what's the point you're trying to get to with this so these these would be like optional fees um actually some of those we might be able to leave off but to just keep in a problematic optional fees that we've already identified as being an issue that P are experiencing and um another example would be access any feed for tendance access to common areas um any fee for

partial change of tendency at the end of the current lease except application fees so I I'm not I'm not saying one way or the other but there's a process for optional fees as far as written disclosure up front and and pendant has to opt into it um or opt up or you have to opt in opt in yeah yeah yeah but you can also opt out and if if these are fees starting at the beginning of the tendency they have to be disclosed at the beginning of the tendency and the model of the ordinance is to it's about disclosure and agreement not going through and saying like even if you disclose it you just can't charge fees I mean that's that's a dramatic change to this model where you start saying does does matter that you disclosed it it was optional they could opt in it's still illegal it it does expand our regulation of optional fees to start prohibit prohibiting some additional fees I that's an accurate characterization and I think that's that's good because I think and optional in terms of you know you have to opt in doesn't necessarily imply significant amount of choice for a tenant right the tenant roommates moving out at the end of the lease a $400 administrative fee is not really optional even if it's you know would be under this ordinance an optional fee right I'm sorry or manufactured would be an illegal fee unless the tenant agreed in it was disclosed in advance and the Tenant agreed to it it would be an excessive unfair excessive fee prohibited by this ordinance all the others hop

in yeah can you um a little more precisely state which ones because one of them you said well not all of them have to be but if there's going to be a sword you fall on and there are three fees that you want to completely prohibit and they're not optional like you know adding a roommate or whatever those are optional fees too they're optional but still unfair I think he's prohibiting these fees they can't Char so there that's not like you can opt in and say okay I'm willing to pay in the future for an unknown a add a roommate fee or switch a lease fee I mean these are things that I'm assuming some of them at the signing of a lease you might think oh yeah okay I'll sign this lease because that's not my current issue but these may be things that change I'm assuming based on the list but if there's if you can concisely give us the list of fees that you want to prohibit outright um I think that'll be easier for us to have a consideration of adding it for that discussion okay maybe I'll start with the two most ridiculous which is the fee for in unit perces and for manufacturing home owners the fee to park on your own so those would be two optional fees that I think are really are for yeah and then if I were to add three additional ones that um uh I think are also problems um uh fees shent month to month which is an optional fee so it's renewal you month to month to $300 more fees for access to common area um and last post special event yes so not special that um and one additional

for manufacturing home owners um would be a fee for not signing a new lease agreement so they have automatically renew lease agreements and they'll sometimes try and get them to change the terms of their occupancy by imposing a fe so those would be the big ones um trying to understand the difference between what no I do understand it from my perspective as as Allan said this is a model where if it's not disclosed UPF front or even if it is and I don't opt in it's illegal or right so that means if I don't opt in I mean the way that I hear it if I don't opt in as a renter it's never going to show up again is that right that's right yeah I mean for me right well if you're not opting in I think correct me if I'm wrong but the concern is is that okay then we're just not going to renew your leas and therefore you're then having to move out of that unit lost ination assist which would be illegal under the ordinance to that's what I thought retaliation but so for example the common area you couldn't start charging for common Aries unless you set up front entering into the lease we do charge for common Aries in these circumstances and and you either opt in or opt out they couldn't like not charge for common Aries and later partway through the tency start charging you couldn't you can't do that right but potentially at least renewal you could add in optional fees I think there's also um like sorry get at your point um that there might be situations where just tenants don't feel like

they have an actual option right so it might be an opt in but if my family member needs to come live with me and they're saying I have to charge $300 I'm just going to do that right like say it might be an optin but that doesn't mean that tenants have good options or that so I think the optin is is good it just doesn't necessarily reflect the sometimes the differential and power between a tenant who signed a lease and is in a home and um and um yeah folks who are imposing some some ridiculous option and I I I hear that I'm just concerned like if you're going to add people to your lease there is a there is an impact to the unit to the landlord and um that gets really complex yeah and to just prohibit it versus having it a process for being an optional fee right and maybe it's it's like some of these might we could talk about if we want to be an outright prohibition or if we want to just put some limits on no more than $100 or something um yeah sorry okay I'm gonna second the motion um we're kind of discussing it but I also feel that the intent of this motion is to have the content be reviewed and get feedback by the stakeholders so I think that will help Enlighten us a little more but also front load that there is a consideration of this we're signaling this might be a possibility I see it as a good tool to get additional information and and I think the probably the more controversial is the adding the um additional tenant because that could have some impact on unit um but if

I'm renting a three-bedroom um and I'm paying for it and now I want to move a family member in I'm still renting a three-bedroom um so there would be the consideration that three bedrooms would be utilized and it would be impact but to be able to park on your own lot that you're renting um to have to pay additional fee I think that it's just it's an unfair and it should be prohibited um to be able to switch to month to month I've rented for three years but I might be leaving for you know in five months because my master degree is completed I need to switch my lease over to month month but now they want to charge me $500 more a month I don't have much good options because I'm going to be I can't find some place else to stay so I kind of feel like that's an unfair you could be taken advantage of and I think the intent of this is to ensure people aren't taking advantage of we may not keep it when we get to the final legislation based on feedback and I know there's a bit of a rewrite to get those put in um but I will support it to move it forward and then anybody else with opinion um C council member Anderson this Mission I actually age wholeheartly what you just said I do think that adding to month a month is a little bit different from the others the others just seem really unfair um Allen you were right this model is clean and easier to explain in an Ideal World it would be enough in an Ideal World the twin mechanisms of disclosure and optionality would cover all this

silliness all this unfairness but in the real world disclosure is not fully protective when the parties have a difference in power the example you said is a great one I'm really not going to move out of my apartment for three months right at way more than $500 a month cost I don't have a choice and so the fact that there's this difference in power and not actual Choice means that disclosure isn't enough it won't always work there's still some silly and unfair things that landlords could do I don't want to go backwards from the model and just start listing all the bad and stupid things but a few of these things maybe we don't be consistent who was it who said a foolish in inconsistency is a hob up in those little lines I think you need to be a little bit inconsistent it's it's it's going against the model but I think inconsistency in this case is better because there's this possibility of continued abuse there's a risk you run in that if you start listing and you don't make an all-inclusive list correct so just I'm not taking a position on you still have disclosure and optionality to catch most things but if you start listening some then a judge could open that you could open that door saying well you intentionally included these but you didn't include those so lawyers can fix that including but not limited to Yeahs it seems to me I I understand what you're saying sort of but didn't we just put an enforcement mechanism in here for violations of this ordinance did we we or

didn't we yes so if I'm a tenant and I don't feel like I have the power I file a complaint and it's and if it's against the law theoretically it's enforced right so not a violation it was disclosed there's no violation there's no enforcement yes there is if it was disclosed under the current regime if if it's disclosed and I say no and then there's retaliation that's a violation skip we're talking about like signing new leases or you know there are situations sorry to be pulled upon that's where is thank you um there are situations where that doesn't work because if I've rented for three years and I need to go month to month and my lease is up and I have to sign a new one that's where they could press scouch me and I have the choice of saying no I'm going to move out but I don't have choice because I can't find housing for three months and so it's trying to be prenative of potentially a loophole where people can take advantage of the situation so it's not about them deciding halfway through my lease they're going to charge me um it's about these adjustments that could happen um at the end of the lease where people don't have a choice maybe they don't have first and last month rent to move into some place new and now you you're going to sign a new lease and they're going to charge you all these other things that are exorbitant and unfair that they shouldn't be able to have the right to charge you because it doesn't cost them money it's just a way for them to make more money so

it's not the the new lease that I worried about it's the the the resigning of a lease where I I know for me I don't have first last and damage deposit to move into the house that I'm living um so that's where that's going to be the mechanism where people who are unscrupulous and it's not many but there will be some who are going to take advantage of the renter and that renter could become homeless because of it that's my [Music] worry so I'll start with saying I like Simplicity too I think it's a it's a great value and I and I I think we should make this as as legible and and concise as possible um but I you know it's not we're not coming up with hypotheticals you know these are real stories right of people who have their washer dryer taken out of their permit right because they wouldn't pay a $50 optional fee right they're washing their clothes in the sink because they have transportation right these are so these are like not hypothetical situations these are predatory optional fees that are currently uh in our market and that we can in a pretty simple way expand this ordinance to address and so um so it it's um yeah and I I agree council member Williams it's it's great that we're thinking really seriously about enforcement um but the other piece is just making sure that this ordinance covers everything that we've heard in public comment that we've heard at the doors so um so yeah that's thanks for seconding my motion please said them and I hope others will support it want

Clarity on what the motion was yeah I was going to ask did we that would be very Andor if you have anything in writing that you could sh yeah I I I can provide in in writing option and I will just welcome heads from legal um without I don't I don't feel can I just give an example so I I understand where you're going and and Council may decide to go that way but like with the washer C because I play done lot yes if there's a washer and dryer in the unit and somebody rents the unit um unless up front they make it really clear with this is an optional fee they can't later say hey we're going to pull that out because you have to pay individual fees to use the washer and grer but but they could at the beginning say washer and Dyer isn't included in this lease and I'm telling you right now it's not there's this optional fee so it's all driven the model the ordinance the simp simple ordinance is driven by full disclosure inwriting up front and then you make based on the market you make choices as to whether that's okay or not so the washer and dryer couldn't just the landlord couldn't just unilaterally at some point into the tendency decide to start charging toally illegal they could say up front before you rent this unit this is what's included in the scope of your lease this is what's optional you can out din or out out so that's the difference fundamental difference and you're saying every a unit that has a washer and dryer in it should have it can't be taken out and you can't

charge for so I just still want to know what the motion was because initially the list was much longer and then Council Anderson requested that you highlighted two and I didn't know if the motion had been reduced for the top two or if it still included the yeah I'm okay with the sure sure and I that would be a question I'd be interested in the public comment like in the survey to ask there have been other optional fees that maybe we can evaluate so can you just State what they are sorry remember um okay so in addition the following fees shall be considered unfair excessive fees and are prohibited um uh let's do you got him right there app yeah and it could say current currently installed uh unit appliances month-to Monon yeah additional or additional fees for month-to month uh rent uh fee for use of common areas and then that could be expanded upon not reserved for closed events and then under the mobile home um you have stated um parking fees for parking on your lot and then common areas is there again and then and then I think this was in our previous motion but would also fit here um any temporary guess where I also heard thank can you send yeah I'll put it I want I want to manage uh expectations a little bit on the enforcement side of things my experience with code enforcement is these things aren't often resolved in a matter of days or weeks they are months if not longer U and so there may be some situations where we get into an active enforcement case where the issue

can't be solved in you know hey my you know this is coming up I'm going to be evicted next month you know and we may not be able to resolve the enforcement side of it in a timely enough manner so I just I want to put that out there that may be the reality of what we de with some of these cases I have follow question but if we want to dispose just um I I keep forgetting that I need to things too um I think I understand your concern about is optional for these and I absolutely prefer simple understandable um when it comes to our code it's still a little iffy on on if we need it um if I think that that you know staff legel Allan is understanding our intent here to not have those uh fees happen um and and I I think I'm understanding that it's really the concern is that the renewal of release or changes can happen the moment of Leverage right um and I get that's that is a more like a more vulnerable time than if you're just shopping for a new place to live um so I'll I'll support it I think for the sake of conversation for analysis further analysis um but but again if we can just do away with that whole listing of optional fees in this legis I would much prefer that because I think we're just playing wacko when it comes to these optional fees um in the end come up with new ideas for ways to actual that's my re streamline and cleaning I don't think necessarily works because in the back of my head I keep thinking well we just write into there that no additional optional fees may be

introduced at a lease renewal they'll expire and new lease and then that's that's where people say I won't resign you but if you want to sign up for a new lease you know here this is and it's still puts them in that position so I think the most egregious and I that's why I want to hear from the public and that's why I think lighting this up a little bit for um you know this may not stay in the final but this gives the opportunity as we go forward to the work sessions or the work groups that you know the the people who are the landlords have the ability to look at this and provide feedback and that's going to help inform our discussion do we better word Smith this do we have a little section on it do we do drop it do we add it um because I want to hear from them and this is a change and I don't want this change to come during our future work session after they had an opportunity to discuss it so that's my main intent is making sure that they understand this might be an option so please provide feedback on it that's so I guess some of my concern is just unintended consequences thinking about the underlying intent this legislation and so sometimes thinking about wanting to reduce rent by decoupling things and providing options to renters so you're not paying for things that you don't need so like yeah use of common areas and in unit Appliance and parking and so I'm just wondering if by outlawing optional fees then they just become part of the rent and potentially increase the

rent and does it then motivate landlords to yeah make rent even higher than necessary just to cover right everything possible I mean I just I don't know it's a question about where you pick your battles and where those pressure points are most um effective in trying to protect you can fly economy class it's cheap because it doesn't have bells and whistles you can for to fly it there's no bells and whistles you have response unintended consequences like you can't charge optional fees for parking on your manufactured home lot that you're leasing typically a manufactured home par lease would have you're leasing this lot and you can have X number of vehicles parked on it my my concern is what if somebody has 10 Vehicles parked on that lot that that does impact the landlord does impact other people living there and we are prohibiting we're essentially greenlining that and so some of the things you're raising are you know in many instances are totally okay totally right to prohibit but they're going to be unintended consequences because we're getting involved in the landlord tenant relationship and we're sort of deciding what some of the terms of the lease will be and that's really significant that's really different from what we've our role in the past yeah two great points and I I think to tie it together you have an option of partition pricing and an option for all-in pricing and I think as a consumer sometimes you want partition pricing parking sometimes sometimes you really

wish parking was included because you're you know yeah so I it's I think it's a question of what is kind of a reasonable consumer standard and I think it's reasonable to be able to park three cars underlock without having to pay an extra fee and so some of that might be like you know adding some language there like the manufacturing home owner may not uh set lease restrictions on parking U of Le greater than less than four vehicles or something right like just um I know it feels like we're diving into a lot of particulars but like is we're just legislating in response to the reality that talents are facing right it's not I don't know I I get the desire to go to 10,000 feet with this but um the unending consequences we can we can think through them in the cases of real real world situ that are happening now so but I just appreciate youall putting up with so yeah I mean I think though with the disclosure I mean there are some units where utilities are included and sometimes they're not I mean the level of specificity with which yeah looking to limit that is concerning to me and gives me pause and it's not I mean ultimately that imbalance right in power and people's circumstances that then force that maybe option that they can't afford or that needs to be addressed but I'm not certain that this is what gets us there like because where does this and you're saying you know oh it could be you know this and all you know others or you know some way to include it when you know

director Lion's saying well if you start lifting things and that's my concern too it's like start listing things then other things that aren't included become questionable and then if you're talking about enforcement I mean that creates a lot more gray area to yeah to navigate on a Case by case basis um at the end of the day we're wanting responsible land owners who are providing habitable you know affordable housing affordable housing for tenants in our community and there's been discussion about you know some sort of um yeah resolution or Declaration about you know what what does Define a you know unit as you know what are the requirements make sure that it's safe and clean and you know how what needs to be provided and it's just hard for me to think about legislating the bad actor to that degree because it's slippery I mean they are slippery and so I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything um but it's just I feel like if you're constantly chasing that where does that you know end and where are we able to have the greatest impact to be able to yeah take real direct enforcement action against some egregious landlords I mean part of me feels like well increasing enforcement or the penalty fees right for violations would that be more impactful to try and you know get people in line to to amend or um address you know some of those concerns but um yeah it's just and I appreciate that you know the recommendations and suggestions are based on real life experiences and I don't I

don't question that I mean I'm um it's just out putting it into policy and that ripple effect I just don't know what that looks like in the end for for the City and I don't want to be setting us up for failure either like I want to make sure that we can be accountable for what we're more passing and protected against litigation un other that's I would agree with you on that matter of fact I do agree with you uh conceptually on all that and I'm going to kind of put an analogy on the table about an experience I had 20 some years ago negotiating a collective bargaining agreement for a school district that was on strike and every proposal that came in to the bargaining team the discussion centered around well we can't agree to that because in this building that principal is going to screw this person and if we do it and then this person over there can't do and so on and it got down to very specific onsite discussions as opposed to the bigger picture is this is what we're negotiating it's going to affect everybody not just we can't change the bigger concept to address every individual situation that's going to be out there other than in a general way and um and the there there is some possibilities of unintended consequences like okay then I'll just put it all in the rent the rent goes Skyhigh and you still can't afford it um and so what we are talking about is something that's going to go to a focus group to discuss and give us feedback as opposed to the final ordinance that

we're going to adopt at some point I would imagine and focusing on the larger concept like Allan said is the model is you can do this and anything that's not on this list is illegal I mean generally speaking anything that you you as a tenant do not agree to is is illegal now is there going to be bumps along the road probably here and there can those bumps be with the current language can those be dealt with in a way that but just like you know Blake said it might take a few months even with the list it might take a few months and so the the question is do we want want to get that specific how spec how lengthy is that going to be and is that something that will really work as as opposed to the idea is we're limiting these excessive fees and anything that's not disclosed and agreed to is an excessive fee now does that mean that we're going to legislate for every individual um along the way or or do we let the process enforce the the ordinance that we pass and see what happens um and I do agree with you the more specific you get if it goes further than down the road a piece I say well why why did you leave those out not put these in why did you leave these fees out and not and put these in see that as as opposed to anything that's not disclosed and not agreed to is illegal and if these aren't disclosed and illegal or or disclosed and agreed to there's a basis for a resolution for that okay but anyway that's simplifying it but that's for discussion in the focus groups right now I

will not that we are very very much with time but this is a great conversation um or complex of legislation um should we vote on this amendment we still have the full one yeah and just I'm not asking anyone to just send their questions about this but I I do think it would be valuable for the public process to have but kept looking for talking offline on the same page just a question could it be injected into the survey uh process what whatever that's going to be as as opposed to putting it in the actual language could could the concept be put in the survey process and see what comes out of that I would prefer both approaches because I I really want to share this draft with stakeholders and it's I think it's easier to simplify than add later on as we go if we have a bias so but yeah I'd like to ask that question Sor direct we can Chas um okay are we ready for vote Yes all in favor sign of uh approving the amendment say I I I any poos exensions I Okay so we've got six with one extension okay quick question for Alan you provide me the language um yeah um uh you mentioned that there might be sometimes gaps in enforcement and um I'm wondering From legal's perspective along with the Civil infraction could there be like some some kind of I don't know we probably can't do this in Municipal Court right but something that will be respective of the future action you know some kind of injunctive we'd have to be in spirit okay so there they would not be compatible processes any further

conversation on the original motion all in favor say I I oppion m so do we need to address the last agenda Bill item since it's oh man home manufactur home I assume that was included in the motion I believe it was we should the order sometime yeah I agree okay with that I guess any further business we can ajour it's